Christ's Own People

[AustinC]

The idea that those who belong to Christ are still burdened with God's hate for their sins is of course nonsense.

How do you interpret Hebrews 7:23-27?

The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office, but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever. Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them. For it was indeed fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens. He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself.

 

[Van]

How do you interpret Hebrews 7:23-27?

The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office, but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever. Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them. For it was indeed fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens. He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself.

Yet another post of non-germane scripture with not statement of how it might be germane to the topic.

The issue is whether those who are born anew, and have undergone the washing of regeneration are:

"... burdened with God's hate for their sins is of course nonsense.

Christ's "intercession" provides salvation for those individuals given to Him. As God's "offering for sin," God's Lamb, without blemish, His "intercession" is "once for all humanity" the just for the unjust.

The idea that we need to have our future sins forgiven after we have been saved is nonsense. All our sins, past, present and future have been forgiven, that is the meaning of "once for all!"

 

[JD731]

Wrong. It's those who belong to Christ that hate their own sins:

15 For that which I do I know not: for not what I would, that do I practise; but what I hate, that I do.
24 Wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me out of the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then I of myself with the mind, indeed, serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. Ro 7

I think I can help here, kyredneck. Let me give it a shot.

The passage you are quoting cannot apply to you actually because you have never lived under the operative principle of the law of Moses. But, the author of the epistle had lived under the law. He was writing in the first person and telling us what it was like and was addressing others who likewise had lived under the law. He desired to keep the moral law, as many of them likewise did, because it was right to do so, but the very law he was attempting to honor was that which condemned him to death. It was a dilemma and he did not have the power to keep it perfectly, although he had the will. Then he found out that someone had suffered the condemnation of the law as his substitute and had given him pardon from the condemnation of death and replaced it with life, not by works but by simply believing and receiving it.. Romans 8 is the flip side of Romans 7 and to live in the flesh is to live under the law.

This is a Jewish context.

You may say that one can find promises in the passage that applies equally to gentiles, and I would say you are right because of the nature of the gift of salvation, but there are things in this context that does not apply to gentiles as well. Therefore, all the truths that gentiles may claim as their own will be substantiated in contexts that either includes them, or that is written to them. One must read with discernment and always honor context. I refer you to the epistle to the Galatians as an example of false Jewish preachers attempt to get saved gentiles to adopt portions of the law of Moses as required doctrines of salvation. Paul addresses these errors in the context of the gift of salvation being the person of the Holy Spirit, who is the righteousness of Christ, whom they had received by faith.

Context (assuming one is believing the words) is key to understanding the scriptures.

Now, let me show you where the author of the letter explains his context.

Ro 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
Ro 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

Everything between these two verses is in a Jewish context. This was in AD 58. All the history of the New Testament between the cross in AD 30 and and the events of Acts 18, when Paul wrote Romans had passed. That was 28 years. The Jewish people had largely refused to let go of the law and were not willing to accept that gentiles were accepted as the people of God as equal with them, who had covenant relations with God for the previous 2000 years and had been exclusively his people. Paul is explaining the purpose of God in forming his church in this age, which is something new and different that what he had been doing in the previous age of the law. This is accomplished through the gospel of Jesus Christ. We will learn in this context that fulfilling his present purpose did not annul or void any of the national and ethical covenants he had made previously with Israel but that all would be fulfilled after the purpose of this age is completed.

If this age is not explained here, it has no explanation as regards the Old Testament scriptures with it's promises to Israel.

 

[KenH]

We will learn in this context that fulfilling his present purpose did not annul or void any of the national and ethical covenants he had made previously with Israel but that all would be fulfilled after the purpose of this age is completed.

All of the Old Testament was fulfilled in Christ. ALL OF IT!

Hebrews 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

Hebrews 8:6-7 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

 

[KenH]

If this age is not explained here, it has no explanation as regards the Old Testament scriptures with it's promises to Israel.

The promises to Old Testament were ALL fulfilled in CHRIST. Old Testament Israel was used by God to bring His Son into the world to die for the sins of God's elect.

We will learn in this context that fulfilling his present purpose did not annul or void any of the national and ethical covenants he had made previously with Israel but that all would be fulfilled after the purpose of this age is completed.

I am amazed how some folks seemingly want to sew the veil back up(Matthew 27:51) and falsely teach a continued separation between Jew and Gentile.

Ephesians 2:14-17 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; and that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: and came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

 

[AustinC]

Yet another post of non-germane scripture with not statement of how it might be germane to the topic.

The issue is whether those who are born anew, and have undergone the washing of regeneration are:


Christ's "intercession" provides salvation for those individuals given to Him. As God's "offering for sin," God's Lamb, without blemish, His "intercession" is "once for all humanity" the just for the unjust.

The idea that we need to have our future sins forgiven after we have been saved is nonsense. All our sins, past, present and future have been forgiven, that is the meaning of "once for all!"

Van, when you drift and sin against Christ Jesus, does it not burden you? Are you not to confess your sins so that God is faithful and just to forgive your sins? This forgiveness is precisely because Christ Jesus is ever interceding for you. Apart from Christ we would be equally as damned as anyone on earth. If Christ Jesus failed to intercede for you, you would be damned. Your own personal faith does not get you a "get out of jail free" card. It is Jesus intermediary work that saves you and keeps you saved. That is what the sermon to the Hebrews is telling you.

 

[percho]

There is no difference between the law "bringing us to Christ and the law escorting us to Christ. Scripture is clear, the law escorts us to Christ. Full Stop.

Please address this clarification! Please address this clarification. Please stop changing the subject with Puslaneous pussyfooting.

Agreed, the law is hanging there as a mirror showing us we are sinners in need of Christ.

 

[Van]

Van, when you drift and sin against Christ Jesus, does it not burden you? Are you not to confess your sins so that God is faithful and just to forgive your sins? This forgiveness is precisely because Christ Jesus is ever interceding for you. Apart from Christ we would be equally as damned as anyone on earth. If Christ Jesus failed to intercede for you, you would be damned. Your own personal faith does not get you a "get out of jail free" card. It is Jesus intermediary work that saves you and keeps you saved. That is what the sermon to the Hebrews is telling you.

Good Grief, not what was said!!!! Here, folks, we get the "redefine what was said" or the "walk back" clean-up on aisle six.

 

[kyredneck]

The passage you are quoting cannot apply to you

Wrong. The war (Romans 7:23), the conflict (Galatians 5:17) applies to every believer.

 

[KenH]

Wrong. The war (Romans 7:23), the conflict (Galatians 5:17) applies to every believer.

Yep. I deal with it regularly, as does every true born child of God. The reprobates don't, even though from man's viewpoint they do things that are we consider kind. The reprobates lack the perfect righteousness of Christ that is imputed to God's elect.

 

[JD731]

Wrong. The war (Romans 7:23), the conflict (Galatians 5:17) applies to every believer.

Romans 7 does not apply to gentiles in the context in which we find it written. It is not primarily an explanation of the doctrine of this age concerning gentiles even though we can glean many spiritual truths from these things that are written. He does speak to gentile Christians about how this concerns them and the break is here;

Ro 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: From that point he tells us of the wonderful blessing and privilege that the Jewish rejection of Jesus Christ has afforded the gentiles. It just seems very difficult for some of you men to accept the fact that God advances his purposes by the principle of his providence and is able to accomplish what he desires in spite of the free will of men, who often oppose him. It was not God who planned their rejection but it was he who has power and wisdom to yet do with Israel what he desires. I know that because he says to the gentiles that he will do it after they will become as the Jews and will no longer believe.

The pronoun "ye" are the gentiles and the word "until" really does mean until and anticipates the time frame when God will keep his covenat promises to the nation and people of Israel that have thius far rejected him and his ways.

Ro 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers’ sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

Concerning Galatians. That epistle is written to gentiles and so what if it says some of the same things as Romans does to the Jews? These are two different people groups with totally different relationships to God during the previous two thousand years while the law of Moses was the operative principle of divine dealing with Israel, but not gentiles. Now, both are being brought into one body by faith in the slain and resurrected Jewish Messiah as equals in standing as children of God, and this must be explained somewhere.

The NT epistles of Paul explains it and context is of utmost importance if one is going to learn the mind and will of God in this whole matter and time.

 

[JD731]

The promises to Old Testament were ALL fulfilled in CHRIST. Old Testament Israel was used by God to bring His Son into the world to die for the sins of God's elect.



I am amazed how some folks seemingly want to sew the veil back up(Matthew 27:51) and falsely teach a continued separation between Jew and Gentile.

Ephesians 2:14-17 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; and that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: and came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

If God is not bound by the content of his character to keep the promises he made with Israel, he certainly is not bound to keep any he might have made to you. I would think you had better hope he is not a God like you insist he is.

 

[KenH]

If God is not bound by the content of his character to keep the promises he made with Israel, he certainly is not bound to keep any he might have made to you. I would think you had better hope he is not a God like you insist he is.

You are in error.

Joshua 21:43 And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.

Joshua 21:45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

And,

Genesis 15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates.

1 Kings 4:21 And Solomon reigned over all kingdoms from the river unto the land of the Philistines, and unto the border of Egypt: they brought presents, and served Solomon all the days of his life.

The "river" is the Euphrates.

Now, @JD731, I urge you to stop saying that God has not kept all of the promises that He made to Israel.

 

[KenH]

@JD731 Just so I know your orientation, are you a dispensationalist? I hope that you have not fallen into that false teaching.

 

[JD731]

You are in error.

Joshua 21:43 And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.

Joshua 21:45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

And,

Genesis 15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates.

1 Kings 4:21 And Solomon reigned over all kingdoms from the river unto the land of the Philistines, and unto the border of Egypt: they brought presents, and served Solomon all the days of his life.

The "river" is the Euphrates.

Now, @JD731, I urge you to stop saying that God has not kept all of the promises that He made to Israel.

You were not careful in your reading. Here is what the Abahamic covenant says about the land grant.

Ge 13:14 And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward:
15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.
16 And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, [then] shall thy seed also be numbered.
17 Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee.


Ge 48:3 And Jacob said unto Joseph, God Almighty appeared unto me at Luz in the land of Canaan, and blessed me,
4 And said unto me, Behold, I will make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, and I will make of thee a multitude of people; and will give this land to thy seed after thee for an everlasting possession.

I suggest also reading the Palestinian, or land covenant, in Duet 30.

Abraham bought a burial plot to bury Sarah in the land that was given to him. He has not possessed the land yet.

!Ge 23:13 ! And he spake unto Ephron in the audience of the people of the land, saying, But if thou wilt give it, I pray thee, hear me: I will give thee money for the field; take it of me, and I will bury my dead there.
14 And Ephron answered Abraham, saying unto him,
15 My lord, hearken unto me: the land is worth four hundred shekels of silver; what is that betwixt me and thee? bury therefore thy dead.
16 And Abraham hearkened unto Ephron; and Abraham weighed to Ephron the silver, which he had named in the audience of the sons of Heth, four hundred shekels of silver, current money with the merchant.
17 And the field of Ephron, which [was] in Machpelah, which [was] before Mamre, the field, and the cave which [was] therein, and all the trees that were in the field, that were in all the borders round about, were made sure
18 Unto Abraham for a possession in the presence of the children of Heth, before all that went in at the gate of his city.
19 And after this, Abraham buried Sarah his wife in the cave of the field of Machpelah before Mamre: the same [is] Hebron in the land of Canaan.
20 And the field, and the cave that [is] therein, were made sure unto Abraham for a possession of a buryingplace by the sons of Heth.

 

[KenH]

Abraham bought a burial plot to bury Sarah in the land that was given to him. He has not possessed the land yet.

What is your point?