I see you openly saying that God predestines those that predestine themselves to God first.
Your belief is no different from those who say "God helps those who help themselves."
Your humanism is obvious. I get it.
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Is Everything Predestined?
- Thread starter Van
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Your belief is no different from those who say "God helps those who help themselves."
Your humanism is obvious. I get it.
Note the endless name calling and against the person argumentation?
Romans 8:29 those planed beforehand to be redeemed are also planed beforehand to be predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. Thus the event of being conformed to the image of Christ!
Romans 8:30 again teaches that those redeemed and predestined have also been called (transferred into) Christ where they undergo the washing of regeneration resulting in justification and spiritual glorification.
And those spiritually redeemed by being transferred into Christ, were also, after being regenerated and indwelt with the Holy Spirit, which is our pledge of our bodily redemption at Christ's second coming. And this bodily redemption is referred to as our "inheritance in Ephesians 1:11-14.
Romans 8:29 those planed beforehand to be redeemed are also planed beforehand to be predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. Thus the event of being conformed to the image of Christ!
Romans 8:30 again teaches that those redeemed and predestined have also been called (transferred into) Christ where they undergo the washing of regeneration resulting in justification and spiritual glorification.
And those spiritually redeemed by being transferred into Christ, were also, after being regenerated and indwelt with the Holy Spirit, which is our pledge of our bodily redemption at Christ's second coming. And this bodily redemption is referred to as our "inheritance in Ephesians 1:11-14.
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
It is one view of Reformed theology that God either causes or allows all things. That is not the definition of Open Theology. Scripture does indicate that God ultimately works and is working everything to his will and plan. But there are things done by human agents that are against God's revealed will and desire for that person. Still, they are ultimately working to accomplish His final plan, even while they are disobeying His will as revealed to them. And what they do really is what they want to do. In the Reformed view of sovereignty, all the contingencies are also known by God and taken into account.
There is an extreme view in Reformed theology that says God directly causes all things, even sin. But it is not a universal view of Reformed theology. Most non Reformed Christians also believe that God either causes or allows all things. That view is not owned by Reformed theologians.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Your lack of comprehension skills is truly astounding. The fact that you do not even understand basic theology is apparent from your response.
Your lack of acknowledging your own words is truly astounding. I have quoted you multiple times. Readers can see exactly what you have said.
Why you give praise to man for salvation is beyond me.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
I have told you a number of times that only God can save and yet you continue to bring up this false accusation. This just shows that you really do not seek truth or you have a rather loose relationship to the truth. You should also know that He only saves those that freely trust in His son.
Why you fail to understand that basic fact of theology is beyond me. The only thing that I can think of is that you are stuck trusting in those pagan ideas that Augustine brought into the church and that Calvin carried into the theology that you hold to.
As I said before bad root produces bad fruit.
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Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
“There are certain men crept in unawares,
who were before of old ordained to this condemnation.”
Jude 1:4.
excerpts from: Fatalism
by Elder H. M. Curry
Fatalism as a doctrine, system of philosophy, or religious belief, originated among those nations of antiquity that knew not God; hence it is of purely heathen origin...Some came to the conclusion that there are no gods, and that all events come upon men inevitably by a blind destiny. This is original Fatalism...
Fatalism in its various ramifications formed the prominent feature of all ancient literature except that of the Jews...The reason for this is that Moses and the prophets taught them that one supreme God ruled this universe...
In Sophocles and some others of this time, the term fate became synonymous with the word chance. At first glance, it seems that these two words are directly opposite in meaning, but a little reflection will make it plain that chance and blind destiny are about the same thing after all...
It will now be seen that Fatalism is first the belief that all things come inevitably upon the human race by blind destiny, with no God to send, direct, or avert them...
Now, whoever saw anyone purporting to be an Old Baptist who believed any of the foregoing phases of doctrine?
Who ever saw an Old Baptist who believed there is no God, and that all things come by a blind and necessary destiny; that all events are fortuitous or by chance?...
Now, if anyone will consider the difference between
events coming to pass that God Himself cannot hinder,
but on the contrary
is bound to permit, suffer or endure, and events coming to pass as He Himself has ordained by His own determinate counsel,
such a one can see the difference between Fatalism and Predestination;...
Strange as it may seem, those very Arminians who are most vociferous in charging Old Baptists with Fatalism are really Fatalists themselves.
It is true that they do not think so, but they think that the ground of this charge is far from them, but upon a very slight analysis of their doctrine it will appear most clearly that the sin justly lies at their door.
One sentence from their daily teaching will establish the truth of this assertion.
Do they not persistently proclaim that men go to hell against the will of God?
that God desires all men to be saved and has done all He can to save them, and yet men go to hell?
that Christ made a full and complete atonement for the sins of all the world, and yet men go to perdition?
If all this be true what takes men to hell but fate?...
Again the Arminian rejects the decree of election on the ground of the certainty of the result decreed, and at the same time admits the foreknowledge of God. Is not the result as certain by foreknowledge as by the decree?
There is nothing gained by denying the decree and substituting for it divine foreknowledge.
This denial involves the objector in greater difficulty than that which he sought to escape, and which he imagined was chargeable upon predestination alone.
By rejecting the decree, and admitting the foreknowledge of God, he has shut himself up to the dread alternative of blank Fatalism, which rules God out of the empire of human history, including even the divine redemption...
The question which now arises for all Arminians and partial predestinarians to answer is, as the whole future is known to God, and therefore certain, therefore determined, by whom or by what has it been determined and rendered certain?
The objector has ruled God out, let him bring forth his substitute.
He has now dethroned the eternal Jehovah, will he leave the throne of the universe vacant, or whom will he place upon it?
He here places himself in a dilemma from which he cannot escape.
He has on the one hand a vacant throne and on the other an absolutely certain future.
He has to account for a determined future, while his principles will not allow him to admit an intelligent personal determiner.
Here it can be easily seen that outside of God’s decrees as the determining cause, all must be attributed to the soulless, passionless, unintelligent idol, Fate...
It has just been shown that Predestination and Fatalism are terms of directly opposite meanings, and it may now be positively asserted that Predestination is the only thing that can rule Fatalism out of the universe. Wherever Predestination stops fate steps in. There is no place between to be occupied by any other species of events...
We must here strike the balance between Fatalism and Predestination. If nothing is predestinated, then all things are by fate. If all things are predestinated, then there is no such thing as fate.
If some things are predestinated, and others not, then the government of this universe is divided between God and the Fates.
The man who does not believe in predestination at all is in reality a Fatalist.
Let him deny it as he may, and reason as he will, there is no other subterfuge for him.
The dilemma has but two horns, and one of them he must take.
Then just in the proportion that a man divides the affairs of this world between Predestination and that which is not Predestination, just in that proportion that man is a Fatalist.
This article is not intended for a defense of the doctrine of Predestination but is merely meant to submit to the reader a fair presentation of Fatalism, and to show the difference between it and Predestination, and point out the inconsistency and confusion of those who confound the one with the other.
Those of us who insist upon a limited Predestination, and who call our brethren who place no limit upon God's decrees, Fatalists, are really much nearer the borders of Fatalism than our brethren whom we thus inconsistently stigmatize...
Those that call Old School Baptists Fatalists, in order to be consistent with their principles, should call Christ a Fatalist, for He said,
“Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?”-Matthew 6:27.
Or when He also said,
“Not a sparrow falls to the ground without your heavenly Father.”
Paul subjects himself to their odium by testifying that
he will have mercy on whom he will, and whom he will he hardeneth.-Romans 9.
Peter is also guilty of a like offense against their zeal for God’s honor when he said, Herod, Pilate and the Gentiles, and the people of Israel,
were gathered together against Christ to do whatsoever God’s hand and God’s counsel determined before to be done.-Acts 4.
Also when he declared that
those who stumbled at the stumbling stone of being disobedient, were appointed to it.-I Peter 2:8.
James places himself in the same company when he said,
“For ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and to this, or that.”
Jude identifies himself with the same kind of Fatalists by saying,
“There are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation.”
Jeremiah must also be classed among them, for he said,
“I know, O Lord, that the way of man is not in himself, it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.”
Solomon belongs to the same company, for he has declared that
“That which is to be hath already been, that which hath been is now, and God requireth the past.”
Upon the same ground, these objectors must stigmatize all the divine writers as Fatalists, and call the Bible itself a book of fate.
The charge of Fatalism against Predestinarians is no new thing.
The Pelagians were loud against Augustine in this charge, the Arminians against Calvin, and all manner of workmongers against men who held the truth in every age.
who were before of old ordained to this condemnation.”
Jude 1:4.
excerpts from: Fatalism
by Elder H. M. Curry
Fatalism as a doctrine, system of philosophy, or religious belief, originated among those nations of antiquity that knew not God; hence it is of purely heathen origin...Some came to the conclusion that there are no gods, and that all events come upon men inevitably by a blind destiny. This is original Fatalism...
Fatalism in its various ramifications formed the prominent feature of all ancient literature except that of the Jews...The reason for this is that Moses and the prophets taught them that one supreme God ruled this universe...
In Sophocles and some others of this time, the term fate became synonymous with the word chance. At first glance, it seems that these two words are directly opposite in meaning, but a little reflection will make it plain that chance and blind destiny are about the same thing after all...
It will now be seen that Fatalism is first the belief that all things come inevitably upon the human race by blind destiny, with no God to send, direct, or avert them...
Now, whoever saw anyone purporting to be an Old Baptist who believed any of the foregoing phases of doctrine?
Who ever saw an Old Baptist who believed there is no God, and that all things come by a blind and necessary destiny; that all events are fortuitous or by chance?...
Now, if anyone will consider the difference between
events coming to pass that God Himself cannot hinder,
but on the contrary
is bound to permit, suffer or endure, and events coming to pass as He Himself has ordained by His own determinate counsel,
such a one can see the difference between Fatalism and Predestination;...
Strange as it may seem, those very Arminians who are most vociferous in charging Old Baptists with Fatalism are really Fatalists themselves.
It is true that they do not think so, but they think that the ground of this charge is far from them, but upon a very slight analysis of their doctrine it will appear most clearly that the sin justly lies at their door.
One sentence from their daily teaching will establish the truth of this assertion.
Do they not persistently proclaim that men go to hell against the will of God?
that God desires all men to be saved and has done all He can to save them, and yet men go to hell?
that Christ made a full and complete atonement for the sins of all the world, and yet men go to perdition?
If all this be true what takes men to hell but fate?...
Again the Arminian rejects the decree of election on the ground of the certainty of the result decreed, and at the same time admits the foreknowledge of God. Is not the result as certain by foreknowledge as by the decree?
There is nothing gained by denying the decree and substituting for it divine foreknowledge.
This denial involves the objector in greater difficulty than that which he sought to escape, and which he imagined was chargeable upon predestination alone.
By rejecting the decree, and admitting the foreknowledge of God, he has shut himself up to the dread alternative of blank Fatalism, which rules God out of the empire of human history, including even the divine redemption...
The question which now arises for all Arminians and partial predestinarians to answer is, as the whole future is known to God, and therefore certain, therefore determined, by whom or by what has it been determined and rendered certain?
The objector has ruled God out, let him bring forth his substitute.
He has now dethroned the eternal Jehovah, will he leave the throne of the universe vacant, or whom will he place upon it?
He here places himself in a dilemma from which he cannot escape.
He has on the one hand a vacant throne and on the other an absolutely certain future.
He has to account for a determined future, while his principles will not allow him to admit an intelligent personal determiner.
Here it can be easily seen that outside of God’s decrees as the determining cause, all must be attributed to the soulless, passionless, unintelligent idol, Fate...
It has just been shown that Predestination and Fatalism are terms of directly opposite meanings, and it may now be positively asserted that Predestination is the only thing that can rule Fatalism out of the universe. Wherever Predestination stops fate steps in. There is no place between to be occupied by any other species of events...
We must here strike the balance between Fatalism and Predestination. If nothing is predestinated, then all things are by fate. If all things are predestinated, then there is no such thing as fate.
If some things are predestinated, and others not, then the government of this universe is divided between God and the Fates.
The man who does not believe in predestination at all is in reality a Fatalist.
Let him deny it as he may, and reason as he will, there is no other subterfuge for him.
The dilemma has but two horns, and one of them he must take.
Then just in the proportion that a man divides the affairs of this world between Predestination and that which is not Predestination, just in that proportion that man is a Fatalist.
This article is not intended for a defense of the doctrine of Predestination but is merely meant to submit to the reader a fair presentation of Fatalism, and to show the difference between it and Predestination, and point out the inconsistency and confusion of those who confound the one with the other.
Those of us who insist upon a limited Predestination, and who call our brethren who place no limit upon God's decrees, Fatalists, are really much nearer the borders of Fatalism than our brethren whom we thus inconsistently stigmatize...
Those that call Old School Baptists Fatalists, in order to be consistent with their principles, should call Christ a Fatalist, for He said,
“Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?”-Matthew 6:27.
Or when He also said,
“Not a sparrow falls to the ground without your heavenly Father.”
Paul subjects himself to their odium by testifying that
he will have mercy on whom he will, and whom he will he hardeneth.-Romans 9.
Peter is also guilty of a like offense against their zeal for God’s honor when he said, Herod, Pilate and the Gentiles, and the people of Israel,
were gathered together against Christ to do whatsoever God’s hand and God’s counsel determined before to be done.-Acts 4.
Also when he declared that
those who stumbled at the stumbling stone of being disobedient, were appointed to it.-I Peter 2:8.
James places himself in the same company when he said,
“For ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and to this, or that.”
Jude identifies himself with the same kind of Fatalists by saying,
“There are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation.”
Jeremiah must also be classed among them, for he said,
“I know, O Lord, that the way of man is not in himself, it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.”
Solomon belongs to the same company, for he has declared that
“That which is to be hath already been, that which hath been is now, and God requireth the past.”
Upon the same ground, these objectors must stigmatize all the divine writers as Fatalists, and call the Bible itself a book of fate.
The charge of Fatalism against Predestinarians is no new thing.
The Pelagians were loud against Augustine in this charge, the Arminians against Calvin, and all manner of workmongers against men who held the truth in every age.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
It is just the fault of Elder H. M. Curry that he seems to have not spent any time reading the history of Augustine or Calvin for that matter. So you see it is not Pelagians or Arminians that bring a charge against Augustine or Calvin. It is their own writings, their own history.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
From: Fatalism
"The question which now arises for all Arminians and partial predestinarians to answer is, as the whole future is known to God, and therefore certain, therefore determined, by whom or by what has it been determined and rendered certain?
The objector has ruled God out, let him bring forth his substitute.
He has now dethroned the eternal Jehovah, will he leave the throne of the universe vacant, or whom will he place upon it?
(Alan's note: I have to conclude that is the same deceiver that remains after God is 'removed' in any other arena, like Creation. That would be Satan behind 'evolution', etc., right? People don't realize that when they choose 'they came from a monkey' just so they can be immoral 'apart from GOD'! Then, what is left. The Devil).
"He here places himself in a dilemma from which he cannot escape. He has on the one hand a vacant throne, and on the other an absolutely certain future.
He has to account for a determined future, while his principles will not allow him to admit an intelligent personal determiner.
Here it can be easily seen that outside of God’s decrees as the determining cause, all must be attributed to the soulless, passionless, unintelligent idol, Fate.
(Behind which lurks? Satan himself).
"The question which now arises for all Arminians and partial predestinarians to answer is, as the whole future is known to God, and therefore certain, therefore determined, by whom or by what has it been determined and rendered certain?
The objector has ruled God out, let him bring forth his substitute.
He has now dethroned the eternal Jehovah, will he leave the throne of the universe vacant, or whom will he place upon it?
(Alan's note: I have to conclude that is the same deceiver that remains after God is 'removed' in any other arena, like Creation. That would be Satan behind 'evolution', etc., right? People don't realize that when they choose 'they came from a monkey' just so they can be immoral 'apart from GOD'! Then, what is left. The Devil).
"He here places himself in a dilemma from which he cannot escape. He has on the one hand a vacant throne, and on the other an absolutely certain future.
He has to account for a determined future, while his principles will not allow him to admit an intelligent personal determiner.
Here it can be easily seen that outside of God’s decrees as the determining cause, all must be attributed to the soulless, passionless, unintelligent idol, Fate.
(Behind which lurks? Satan himself).
I have not seen any "Reformed" sites that advocate God causes or allows all things. OTOH, "God ordains (predestines) whatsoever comes to pass" is common to most sites.
Here is the sort of ambiguous claim that is the hall mark of Reformed Theology. Does God's "final plan" include the result of the autonomous choices of humans for life or death? Or was salvation predetermined before creation? That is of course left to be inferred.
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Salvation was predetermined before the foundation of the world. The Bible tells us. It does not leave it to inference. Perhaps you cannot accept how straightforward the Bible is on this and thus you will look for a twist to escape, but the Bible is very clear.I have not seen any "Reformed" sites that advocate God causes or allows all things. OTOH, "God ordains (predestines) whatsoever comes to pass" is common to most sites.
Here is the sort of ambiguous claim that is the hall mark of Reformed Theology. Does God's "final plan" include the result of the autonomous choices of humans for life or death? Or was salvation predetermined before creation? That is of course left to be inferred.
*Ephesians 1:3-6*
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
There is a basic flaw in the logic of this post. God knowing the future does not require that He cause the future.
When you think the posters view through you come to the end result that God is the author of all the sin and evil in the world.
"as the whole future is known to God, and therefore certain, therefore determined" these are the posters words not mine and they do not leave any room for another understanding than that God determines/causes all things. I his mad rush to smear any non-calvinist view he has shown a major flaw in the Calvinist theology.
In his attempt to call all non-calvinist views fatalistic he has just shown that Calvinism in indeed the one that engenders Fatalism
Yes, this is exactly the view held by Reformed Theology. God's "final plan" does not include the autonomous choices for life or death of humans, as that was predetermined. Never mind Deuteronomy 30:19.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
You are right. God has predestined that those that freely trust in His son will adopted in the Son.
When we untwist your statement, you are saying:
"God helps those who help themselves."
In this context you are saying:
" God predestines those who predestinate themselves."
Thanks for confirming that I didn't misunderstand you.
Van, you obviously ignore the context of Deuteronomy since it is Moses commission to the...elect and chosen...people of God.
Note that it has nothing to do with salvation, so your argument is empty of any merit.
*Deuteronomy 30:17-20*
But if your heart turns away, and you will not hear, but are drawn away to worship other gods and serve them, I declare to you today, that you shall surely perish. You shall not live long in the land that you are going over the Jordan to enter and possess. I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live, loving the Lord your God, obeying his voice and holding fast to him, for he is your life and length of days, that you may dwell in the land that the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.”
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
I think it is ambiguous. And yes, it does include free choices (not autonomous) of humans for life or death. That is the way Calvinists preach. In the end, and looking back, was it in some way predetermined? If you really think about it yes, you can get to that point logically. But if you do arrive at that point logically - That does not mean that you are no longer under the clear commands that you read in scripture.
So while it is indeed ambiguous you cannot pick and choose various Calvinistic statements as the only representation of what Calvinism is. It is a fact that high Calvinists like Owen said repeatedly that you have it on the direct promise of God that if you come to him He will save you. No one has any right to say that Calvinists don't believe that. You do have a right to say that it doesn't fit with some of the theological writings or that it doesn't fit the TULIP but it is too much on record how they preached and taught to charge them with declaring that there are some who aren't allowed to come to Christ because they were predestined to be damned.
Utter nonsense. The choice of life or death has everything to do with salvation. Full Stop.
LOL, the context of Deuteronomy 30 is entirely in the Mosaic/Sinai Covenant. God already chose Israel, but it they chose to break covenant with God, God will spew them out of the land. Van, you know this. Why are you trying to twist God's word out of context? Are you that desperate to remove God from His Sovereign throne?
Sorry but you have left the building. To believe if a person is unable to believe, did the impossible, they would be saved is nonsense. No one gets to the point of believing everything is predestined logically! For example, every-time the bible says someone made a choice, you have to rewrite it to say they chose from only one alternative, thus a non-choice. Acts 6:5 for example.
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