Utter nonsense. The choice of life or death has everything to do with salvation. Full Stop.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Is Everything Predestined?
- Thread starter Van
- Start date
- Status
Repeating falsehood does not advance you bogus view. God set before the people entering the promised land the choice of life or death, to faithfully follow God or go their own way. Those that obtained approval by faith obtained life as an OT Saint.
You can deny this fundamental truth till the cows come home, but Truth stands forever.
I like the example Tim Keller used. To paraphrase, if our decisions determine the future then we should be too terrified to live. If our decisions do not matter then we have no reason to live. It is because God controls the future we have the courage to decide our actions.
Both extremes - libertarian free-will and determinism - are errors that make life and redemption meaningless.
God told Paul the ship would be destroyed but no lives would be lost. Based on the future being in God's hands Paul could tell the sailors that if they abandon the ship they would all die.
Hyper-Calvinists openly assert everything is predestined. Boettner says everything is predestined. But is that Biblical.
No. This thread is not about Omniscience, no matter how it is defined. According to Arminianism, God knowing the future exhaustively does not predestine it. We must set aside this issue and stick with the scope of predestination.
If everything is predestined, that is Closed Theology and God is the Author of Sin, just as Hyper-Calvinism claims
If everything is not predestined, that is Open Theology to a limited degree, and God knowing the future exhaustively does not cause everything to be predestined according to Arminianism and all but the Hyper Calvinists.
Therefore all Arminians and most Calvinists are open theists to a limited degree as they both agree God is not the author of sin.
No. This thread is not about Omniscience, no matter how it is defined. According to Arminianism, God knowing the future exhaustively does not predestine it. We must set aside this issue and stick with the scope of predestination.
If everything is predestined, that is Closed Theology and God is the Author of Sin, just as Hyper-Calvinism claims
If everything is not predestined, that is Open Theology to a limited degree, and God knowing the future exhaustively does not cause everything to be predestined according to Arminianism and all but the Hyper Calvinists.
Therefore all Arminians and most Calvinists are open theists to a limited degree as they both agree God is not the author of sin.
Daniel 11:27-29 shows you how God Sovereignty works.
And as for the two kings, their hearts shall be bent on doing evil. They shall speak lies at the same table, but to no avail, for the end is yet to be at the time appointed. And he shall return to his land with great wealth, but his heart shall be set against the holy covenant. And he shall work his will and return to his own land. “At the time appointed he shall return and come into the south, but it shall not be this time as it was before.
Creation does not effect the Creator.
When a football game starts, its end will occur at the appointed time, but the outcome has not been predetermined because its ending elapsed time has been predetermined. God set before the people entering the promised land the choice of life or death, to faithfully follow God or go their own way. Those that obtained approval by faith obtained life as an OT Saint. God has predestined some things, but not all things. Our salvation or the salvation of those we love has not been predetermined, the Good News is that Jesus saves, and He arms are open to all believers. John 3:16
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
1. God is all knowing and God is all powerful.
2. God has an overall plan that he is able to and wants to accomplish. (see no. 1)
3. There is nothing that can happen that God is not aware of and if it is allowed to happen anyway it is because God has allowed it to happen - otherwise he would have prevented it.
a. Of no. 3, some things are his direct will to happen and are done by human agents acting freely. (Obeying God)
b. Some things are directly caused by God himself.
c. Some things are done by human agents acting freely AGAINST God's will but because of no. 1 are being permitted to
happen because of God's choice and/or because it will lead to events that further God's overall plan in No. 2 above.
4. Therefore, ALL things are predestined and ordained by God - yet human agents are acting in complete freedom
except for normal human limitations and also limitations caused by the oversite of God according to No. 2 above.
I have logically gone from the basic Christian idea of God's attributes to complete predestination logically. Where exactly can you refute this.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Bravo, DaveXR650, great job as always. How about, instead, I just back you up? from: Predestination
"Predestination is that eternal, most wise, and immutable decree of God, whereby he did, form before all time, determined and ordain to create, dispose of, and direct to some particular end, every person and thing to which he has given, or is yet to give, being; and to make the whole creation subservient to, and declarative of, his own glory." "The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil" (Prov. 16:4)—Zanchius
"The doctrine, as we think, necessarily grows out of the character of God, and his connection with the universe as its creator, upholder, and governor.
"The following series of propositions, analytically disposed, contains, as we conceive, both the statement and the proof of it:
1. This earth was created by God, and, consequently, there was a period when it began to exist.
2. God created it not of necessity, or from impulse, but according to the good pleasure of His will, and as the result of a settled purpose entertained from eternity.
3. As an infinitely wise and reasonable being, he had some ultimate object, well-defined, and specific, which he proposed to attain by its creation (Prov. 16:4; Rom. 11:36; Rev. 4:11).
4. Possessing infinite knowledge, he knew, by intuition not only all things that have existed, and shall exist, but all things possible—"all possible causes, and all their possible effects"(Ps. 147:5;1 Sam. 23:11,12;Matthew 11:21, 23). Therefore, out of an endless diversity of worlds comprehended in the divine knowledge as possible, he selected such an one as this—composed as it is, and peopled as it is,—as the most suitable means for the accomplishment of his purpose: and decreed that it should exist (Col. 1:16).
5. That this ultimate object might be attained, and the end infallibly secured, he ordained, with unerring certainty, all the means necessary, both in the world of matter and in the world of mind. He not only fixed, from eternity, all the forms, positions, relations, and motions of matter, even to the numbering of the hairs of our heads, and deciding when a sparrow should fall—in directing the motions of the particles of dust in the atmosphere, (Isa. 40:12) and ordaining when the sun should shine, (Job 9:7) and when the wind should blow, (Ps. 135:7), but he "fixed from eternity all the circumstances in the life of every individual or mankind and all the particulars which will compose the history of the human race from its commencement to its close."
6. God’s foreknowledge relates to those things that should occur in time; and he foreknew, therefore, that those would occur rather than the other innumerable things that were possible because he had decreed that they, and not others, should exist. (Eph. 1:11; Acts 15:18; Ps. 115:6; Acts 17:26).
7. The world, therefore, in all its physical and moral details, is just as God designed it to be—the entrance of moral evil itself not excepted. He did not err in his plan, therefore evil did not enter unexpectedly to him—he has not been frustrated in his purpose, therefore it did not enter in spite of him. And this too is in perfect consistency with the declaration of scripture, that God is not the author of sin.
1. God is not only the creator but the upholder of all things (Heb. 1:3). In him we live, and move, and have our being. He not only bestowed upon men their faculties, but He gives them the ability to use them. He preserves those powers when they are employed in opposition to him, no less than when they are employed in his service.
2. This he does not from a choice of evils, i.e. not because he is compelled, by the force of circumstances, which he cannot control, to take this as an evil rather than some other that is greater, for, possessing almighty power, he might have paralyzed those faculties, or prevented their abuse by changing the hearts of their owners.
3. Possessing infallible prescience, he foresaw all the instances in which ungodly men would sin against him; and, permitting it in time, he determined to permit it from all eternity, and decreeing from eternity to permit it, it entered into his plan, and composed a part of the purpose which he entertained before the world was.
1. God, as the governor of the world, administers all things according to his sovereign pleasure. He doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
2. "He did not merely decree that general laws should be established for the government of the world, but he settled the application of those laws to all particular cases." Our days are numbered, and so are the hairs of our heads. His providence takes cognizance of, and controls everything however minute (Ps. 135:6;Acts 17:25,26,28; Matthew 6:26,30, &c). "It upholds, directs, disposes, and governs all creatures, actions and things, from the greatest even to the least."
3. Now, as known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world, and, as he is immutable in his nature, it follows that what he does in time he determined to do from eternity—that his providence is but the enforcement of those laws and the revealment of those plans, which existed before the world was. Finally, it follows that "whatever occurs in time was fore-ordained before the beginning of time."
In reference to men, predestination is divided into two parts:
1st—as it relates to the elect,
and 2nd—as it relates to the non-elect.
Having decreed to create a world and to people it with beings who would voluntarily sin against him, he determined from eternity to save some and to leave others to perish in their sins.
"Willing to show his wrath and to make his power known," he "endured with much long suffering" these as "the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: and that he might make known the riches of his glory on" those as "the vessels of mercy which he had afore prepared unto glory" (Rom. 9:22-23).
To carry out his purpose of grace, he chose some to holiness and eternal life, entered for their sake into the Covenant of Redemption with the Son and the Holy Ghost, appointed his Son as their substitute, to suffer in their stead, and, having died, to rise again and appear as their advocate before his throne, appointed all the intermediate means necessary and, by an infallible decree, made their salvation sure.
Those "whose names are not written in the book of life" (Rev. 20:15), who are "appointed to wrath" (1 Thess. 5:9),
who were "before of old ordained to condemnation" (Jude 4),
who would "stumble at the word, being disobedient, whereunto also they were appointed" (1 Pet. 2:8),
He determined to leave in their sins and to endure them with much long-suffering as vessels of wrath fitted to destruction.
The elect are chosen, not because God foresees faith and good works in them; but in part that they might have faith and might perform good works: or, in the language of the Confession of Faith, quoted by our author:
"God hath chosen them in Christ, unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving him thereunto."
God’s act in electing some and not others is to be resolved into his sovereign will. He hath mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth (Rom. 9:18).
While, by an immutable decree. He has made all things in time fixed and sure, all this occurs in perfect consistency with the free agency of the creature, and God is not the author of sin. The elect are, by the influence of sovereign grace, made willing in the day of God’s power and those not elected have no active principle of disobedience imparted to them, and feel no restraint upon their wills—they are simply passed by, and permitted to follow the inclinations of their own hearts. While they work out God’s purposes, they do it unconsciously and wickedly.
"Him (Christ) being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken and by wicked hands have crucified and slain" (Acts 2:23).
1) If Jesus is God, and He is, and He did not know the time of His return, we must ask "God is all knowing" about what, since obviously everything does not fit. How can God forgive and remember no more forever if He knows everything. Again no answer will be forthcoming. Reformed theology simply lives in the swamp of ambiguity to hide its unbiblical nature.
2) God has an overall plan that includes the results of our autonomous choices of life and death.
3) Did anyone say God is not omnipresent? Nope
4) Does God desire His children to be ineffective witnesses, or does He reward effective ministry? He rewards our choices to provide effective ministry.
But at least we see Dave has sailed beyond his smoke screen and has now declared God causes all things, rather than God causes or allows all things. "All things are predestined and ordained by God."
Van said:
Once again, the smoke screen is pouring out smoke. Reformed Theology teaches we were saved or damned before the foundation of the world, and there is nothing anyone can do to alter that foreordained outcome of our lives, the theology of futility.
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
No. 3c and 4 refute that idea. To know something will happen and yet to allow it to happen when you could have prevented it does make you responsible for it's occurrence WITHOUT making you the cause of it. What makes this hard for us as humans is that our responsibilities are much simpler. God has a whole world to run with all the contingent plans of human acting for and against God's direct declared will for them.
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
One thing that I have learned from reading a lot of practical Calvinist teachers, those that are Calvinist but actually minister primarily rather than debate, is that the Calvinist theology is BACKGROUND information. It is a mistake to move the theological meanderings and musings to primary doctrinal status. In other words, if you know someone who hears the gospel and rejects it the Calvinist really does believe that they heard the gospel and rejected it. The fact that they were predestined from before time began to do this, according to the little outline I gave above, in no way diminishes the reality of them hearing the gospel and rejecting it. Unfortunately, guys like you don't understand this and so hate Calvinism and I understand that. What's even worse is that many Calvinists don't understand this either and so you see things like Calvinists getting angry when someone simply says they believed, or came to Christ. The fact is they did.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
You can attempt to acceptably 'worship' God, by claiming someone on the side of The Doctrines of Grace says, "God is the Author of Sin".
And, you get to stand before God, when He knows you claim someone on the side of The Doctrines of Grace says, "God is the Author of Sin".
I, as whatever "225-point Calvinist*" I am, get to worship and stand before a God Who's Activity is to be resolved into, and by the Pleasure of His Own Good Sovereign Will, as He has Revealed in His revelation to Mankind, The Bible;
"He hath mercy on whom he will have mercy,
and whom he will he hardeneth" (Rom. 9:18).
from: Predestination
"God’s act in electing some and not others
is to be resolved into his sovereign will."
"He hath mercy on whom he will have mercy,
and whom he will he hardeneth" (Rom. 9:18).
"While, by an immutable decree. He has made all things in time fixed and sure, all this occurs in perfect consistency with the free agency of the creature, and God is not the author of sin.
"The elect are, by the influence of sovereign grace, made willing in the day of God’s power
"...and those not elected have no active principle of disobedience imparted to them, and feel no restraint upon their wills—they are simply passed by, and permitted to follow the inclinations of their own hearts.
"While they work out God’s purposes, they do it unconsciously and wickedly.
"Him (Christ) being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken and by wicked hands have crucified and slain" (Acts 2:23).
...
* As P. H. Mell says, (a good statement on it):
"Of course, it will be understood that the term, Calvinism, is used in conformity to custom and not to imply that the doctrines embraced in it originated with the Genevan Reformer."
I believe The Doctrines of Grace, Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace, and the Perseverance of the Saints, are Eternal.
What is it about Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace, and the Perseverance of the Saints that the Triune GODHEAD didn't Know and Have Taken Care Of in Eternity Past?
The Doctrines of Grace are Eternal.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
We ARE NOT going to "make God responsible for the killing of Christ", although He had the Power to prevent it, didn't He?
Or accuse Him of being the author of that, or any other sin, are we?, in spite of what the Bible says, in Acts 2:23;
"Him (Jesus), being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:"
"THE OBLIQUITY, IRREGULARITY, AND SINFULNESS OF THE ACTION, IS FROM THE CREATURE: WHEREFORE GOD IS NOT THE AUTHOR OF ANY SIN;
"AS HE IS NOT THE AUTHOR OF SIN IN ANY MAN, NOTWITHSTANDING THE CONCOURSE OF HIS PROVIDENCE WITH EVERY ACTION OF HIS, AS AN ACTION..." (John Gill, Body of Divinity, p. 319).
from: Predestination
"God’s act in electing some and not others
is to be resolved into his sovereign will."
I worship the God that does know something will happen and yet allows it to happen when He could have prevented it, as One Who is not the author of sin, as He Resolves that alleged discrepancy and weakness, in the minds of men, by His Own Good Pleasure and Sovereign Will.
Our 'job' is to resolve what we say and believe, as an activity of worship, with what God says about Himself:
Deuteronomy 32:4,
"He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he."
2 Samuel 22:31.
"As for God, His way is perfect; the word of the LORD is flawless. He is a shield to all who take refuge in Him."
1 Peter 2:22
He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth.
Hebrews 4:15
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.
2 Corinthians 5:21
For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
1 John 3:5
You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin.
Romans 8:3
For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,
1 Peter 1:19
But with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot.
Hebrews 9:14
How much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God?, etc., etc.
...
con't
Or accuse Him of being the author of that, or any other sin, are we?, in spite of what the Bible says, in Acts 2:23;
"Him (Jesus), being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:"
"THE OBLIQUITY, IRREGULARITY, AND SINFULNESS OF THE ACTION, IS FROM THE CREATURE: WHEREFORE GOD IS NOT THE AUTHOR OF ANY SIN;
"AS HE IS NOT THE AUTHOR OF SIN IN ANY MAN, NOTWITHSTANDING THE CONCOURSE OF HIS PROVIDENCE WITH EVERY ACTION OF HIS, AS AN ACTION..." (John Gill, Body of Divinity, p. 319).
from: Predestination
"God’s act in electing some and not others
is to be resolved into his sovereign will."
I worship the God that does know something will happen and yet allows it to happen when He could have prevented it, as One Who is not the author of sin, as He Resolves that alleged discrepancy and weakness, in the minds of men, by His Own Good Pleasure and Sovereign Will.
Our 'job' is to resolve what we say and believe, as an activity of worship, with what God says about Himself:
Deuteronomy 32:4,
"He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he."
2 Samuel 22:31.
"As for God, His way is perfect; the word of the LORD is flawless. He is a shield to all who take refuge in Him."
1 Peter 2:22
He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth.
Hebrews 4:15
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.
2 Corinthians 5:21
For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
1 John 3:5
You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin.
Romans 8:3
For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,
1 Peter 1:19
But with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot.
Hebrews 9:14
How much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God?, etc., etc.
...
con't
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
The Sovereignty, Predestination (O.P.), and Will of God:
from: THE WILL OF GOD by T.P. Simmons
II. PHASES OF GOD'S WILL
1. GOD'S WILL OF PURPOSE.
"God has purposed or decreed all things that have come to pass and all things that shall ever come to pass. See Psa. 135:6; Isa. 46:10; Dan. 4:35; Acts 2:23; 4:27- 28; 13:48; Rom. 8:29,30; 9:15-18; Eph. 1:11.
"These passages show God to be an absolute sovereign in directing all the affairs of this world and in the distribution of saving grace.
"His will of purpose includes evil as well as good, sin as well as righteousness; and it is always accomplished perfectly.
"But the following subdivisions of God's will of purpose are necessary.
(1) Gods Positive Purpose.
God is the active, positive cause of all good. Everything good is the result of the efficient working of Gods power, either directly or through His creatures. It is to this subdivision of God's will of purpose that Phil. 2:13 applies, which tells us:
"It is God that worketh in you both to will and to work for his good pleasure."
(2) God's Permissive Purpose.
"God is not the cause of evil (or "responsible for its occurrence"?, DaveXR650?) (that evil and sins are simply "by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God"); but for just, holy, and wise reasons, known fully to Himself only, He has decreed to permit such evil as comes to pass and to overrule it for His own glory.
"It is to God's permissive will that the Scripture refers when it says:
"Surely the wrath of man shall praise thee; the remainder of wrath shalt thou restrain" (Psa. 76:10).
"This Scripture points out that God restrains men from doing more sin that He is pleased to overrule for His glory. Therefore He permits them to commit such sins as they do commit. He could keep men from all sin as easily as He stops them at the appointed place.
"We can give no reason why God permits sin that will satisfy the carnal mind; but the fact that He does so is abundantly clear. And, since God always does right, we know that it is right for Him to permit such sin as comes to pass.
"In Acts 2:23 and 4:27,28 we have a clear statement that the crucifixion of Christ was a part of the purposive or decretive will of God.
"But we know that God did not efficiently cause the crucifiers to do what they did. Such would make God responsible for the killing of Christ.
"God merely withheld His restraining power and permitted the crucifiers to proceed according to their own evil desires. This is all God has to do to bring about the commission of any sin He is pleased to overrule for His glory. Man will commit any sin that God will permit him to commit.
"The hardening of the heart of Pharaoh, as detailed in Exodus, and his making of vessels unto dishonor (Rom. 9:21) are to be understood also as coming under God's permissive purpose.
"The careful student will note that it is implied in the foregoing discussion that God's permission of sin is not a bare or necessary permission, such as Arminians are willing to admit and such as is exemplified in a man's permission of that which he cannot prevent; but is a sovereign, providential, willing, and purposeful permission of that which God has full power to prevent had He so willed.
"With regard to Adam's sin, John Gill aptly remarks: "There was a concourse of divine providence attending this action and influencing it as an action, without which it could never have been performed; as divine providence supports every wicked man in his being throughout the whole course of his vicious life, [determining the circumstances and occasions of all his acts], and so while he is sinning; the same providence upheld [and surrounded] Adam in his being, whilst he was eating of the forbidden fruit;
"...otherwise as Eve could not have stretched out her hand and taken the fruit of the tree and eaten it, so neither could Adam have put forth his hand and taken it of her.
"The influences of divine providence concur with every action, be it what it may, as an action, since all live, and move, and have their being in God; every action, as an action, is from God;
"BUT THE OBLIQUITY, IRREGULARITY, AND SINFULNESS OF THE ACTION, IS FROM THE CREATURE: WHEREFORE GOD IS NOT THE AUTHOR OF ANY SIN;
"AS HE IS NOT THE AUTHOR OF SIN IN ANY MAN, NOTWITHSTANDING THE CONCOURSE OF HIS PROVIDENCE WITH EVERY ACTION OF HIS, AS AN ACTION..." (Body of Divinity, p. 319).
"Because Calvinists have recognized the full truth as unmistakably set forth in those Scriptures that ascribe evil to God (see Ex. 7:3,4; 1 Sam. 18:10; 2 Sam. 24:1, compared with 1 Chron. 21:1; John 12:40; Acts 4:27, 28; Rom. 9:18), and, therefore, have been unwilling to divorce God's permission of sin from His decrees;
"Arminians have accused them of making God the author of sin.
"But every representative Calvinist that has ever lived has repudiated this charge and, like John Gill, has given logical ground for that repudiation.
"This includes Calvin himself. A careful perusal of his works will show indisputably that he taught nothing more with regard to God's relation to sin than is taught herein."
DETERMINING, Setting Right, and Coming to a Conclusion over The Sovereignty of God and The Will of God vs The Human Responsibility and The Free Agency of Man are GOD'S BUSINESS and sources of Worship, not subjects for accusations against God.
from: THE WILL OF GOD by T.P. Simmons
II. PHASES OF GOD'S WILL
1. GOD'S WILL OF PURPOSE.
"God has purposed or decreed all things that have come to pass and all things that shall ever come to pass. See Psa. 135:6; Isa. 46:10; Dan. 4:35; Acts 2:23; 4:27- 28; 13:48; Rom. 8:29,30; 9:15-18; Eph. 1:11.
"These passages show God to be an absolute sovereign in directing all the affairs of this world and in the distribution of saving grace.
"His will of purpose includes evil as well as good, sin as well as righteousness; and it is always accomplished perfectly.
"But the following subdivisions of God's will of purpose are necessary.
(1) Gods Positive Purpose.
God is the active, positive cause of all good. Everything good is the result of the efficient working of Gods power, either directly or through His creatures. It is to this subdivision of God's will of purpose that Phil. 2:13 applies, which tells us:
"It is God that worketh in you both to will and to work for his good pleasure."
(2) God's Permissive Purpose.
"God is not the cause of evil (or "responsible for its occurrence"?, DaveXR650?) (that evil and sins are simply "by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God"); but for just, holy, and wise reasons, known fully to Himself only, He has decreed to permit such evil as comes to pass and to overrule it for His own glory.
"It is to God's permissive will that the Scripture refers when it says:
"Surely the wrath of man shall praise thee; the remainder of wrath shalt thou restrain" (Psa. 76:10).
"This Scripture points out that God restrains men from doing more sin that He is pleased to overrule for His glory. Therefore He permits them to commit such sins as they do commit. He could keep men from all sin as easily as He stops them at the appointed place.
"We can give no reason why God permits sin that will satisfy the carnal mind; but the fact that He does so is abundantly clear. And, since God always does right, we know that it is right for Him to permit such sin as comes to pass.
"In Acts 2:23 and 4:27,28 we have a clear statement that the crucifixion of Christ was a part of the purposive or decretive will of God.
"But we know that God did not efficiently cause the crucifiers to do what they did. Such would make God responsible for the killing of Christ.
"God merely withheld His restraining power and permitted the crucifiers to proceed according to their own evil desires. This is all God has to do to bring about the commission of any sin He is pleased to overrule for His glory. Man will commit any sin that God will permit him to commit.
"The hardening of the heart of Pharaoh, as detailed in Exodus, and his making of vessels unto dishonor (Rom. 9:21) are to be understood also as coming under God's permissive purpose.
"The careful student will note that it is implied in the foregoing discussion that God's permission of sin is not a bare or necessary permission, such as Arminians are willing to admit and such as is exemplified in a man's permission of that which he cannot prevent; but is a sovereign, providential, willing, and purposeful permission of that which God has full power to prevent had He so willed.
"With regard to Adam's sin, John Gill aptly remarks: "There was a concourse of divine providence attending this action and influencing it as an action, without which it could never have been performed; as divine providence supports every wicked man in his being throughout the whole course of his vicious life, [determining the circumstances and occasions of all his acts], and so while he is sinning; the same providence upheld [and surrounded] Adam in his being, whilst he was eating of the forbidden fruit;
"...otherwise as Eve could not have stretched out her hand and taken the fruit of the tree and eaten it, so neither could Adam have put forth his hand and taken it of her.
"The influences of divine providence concur with every action, be it what it may, as an action, since all live, and move, and have their being in God; every action, as an action, is from God;
"BUT THE OBLIQUITY, IRREGULARITY, AND SINFULNESS OF THE ACTION, IS FROM THE CREATURE: WHEREFORE GOD IS NOT THE AUTHOR OF ANY SIN;
"AS HE IS NOT THE AUTHOR OF SIN IN ANY MAN, NOTWITHSTANDING THE CONCOURSE OF HIS PROVIDENCE WITH EVERY ACTION OF HIS, AS AN ACTION..." (Body of Divinity, p. 319).
"Because Calvinists have recognized the full truth as unmistakably set forth in those Scriptures that ascribe evil to God (see Ex. 7:3,4; 1 Sam. 18:10; 2 Sam. 24:1, compared with 1 Chron. 21:1; John 12:40; Acts 4:27, 28; Rom. 9:18), and, therefore, have been unwilling to divorce God's permission of sin from His decrees;
"Arminians have accused them of making God the author of sin.
"But every representative Calvinist that has ever lived has repudiated this charge and, like John Gill, has given logical ground for that repudiation.
"This includes Calvin himself. A careful perusal of his works will show indisputably that he taught nothing more with regard to God's relation to sin than is taught herein."
DETERMINING, Setting Right, and Coming to a Conclusion over The Sovereignty of God and The Will of God vs The Human Responsibility and The Free Agency of Man are GOD'S BUSINESS and sources of Worship, not subjects for accusations against God.
Last edited:
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
...
Why would Van hate Calvinism?
...and think he has to make up a way he thinks he can "obtain approval"?
...and hope and guess that "the results of our autonomous choices of life and death has anything to do with 'salvation'?
..or carry that 'hate' over to even articulate presumed accusations against Deity, like...
&
Could it possibly have anything to do with him wanting this, sentimentally, to be true?:
...and not Worship, Praise, and Love a God of Whom it is said:
...and conversely, genuinely Worship, Praise, and Love a God of Whom it is said:
...has been predetermined.
????????????
Is that within the realm of human possibilities, you think?
For any of us?
Not talked about much...
You're a pretty smart guy and analyze a lot of this stuff.
We might all have some occasions to repent of areas in this arena(?)
Dunno.
That'd be O.K. if we do.
The formula, "I love God in spite of (HIM)_______________,
can be a Glorious Breakthrough Blessing.
Why would Van hate Calvinism?
...and think he has to make up a way he thinks he can "obtain approval"?
...and hope and guess that "the results of our autonomous choices of life and death has anything to do with 'salvation'?
..or carry that 'hate' over to even articulate presumed accusations against Deity, like...
&
Could it possibly have anything to do with him wanting this, sentimentally, to be true?:
...and not Worship, Praise, and Love a God of Whom it is said:
...and conversely, genuinely Worship, Praise, and Love a God of Whom it is said:
...has been predetermined.
????????????
Is that within the realm of human possibilities, you think?
For any of us?
Not talked about much...
You're a pretty smart guy and analyze a lot of this stuff.
We might all have some occasions to repent of areas in this arena(?)
Dunno.
That'd be O.K. if we do.
The formula, "I love God in spite of (HIM)_______________,
can be a Glorious Breakthrough Blessing.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Care to explain how the person helps themselves? You have made this claim now more than once and have yet to back it up. Is this just another of your smoke and mirrors answers.
Care to quote the verse that says the man predestinates himself.
Now I know we have verses that show man trusting in Christ Jesus for salvation. Ephesians 1:13-14 and we can also look at Romans 3:21-31 for some clarity on this subject. And further to those we have Romans 10:13-14 that will offer some help in furthering your proper understanding of salvation as you do seem rather confused as to how that comes about.
Tell me where I am false.
Was Moses addressing the chosen people of God in Deuteronomy 30? (Yes)
Was Moses referring to the Covenant God made with Israel at Mt Sinai? (Yes)
Was God speaking of spiritual salvation? (No)
Was God speaking of the consequences of failing to keep the Covenant? (Yes)
Tell me where I am speaking falsely.
Van, your text is not addressing your assertion. You have plucked a prooftext, out of context, to support your pretext. Even your comments above prove that as you add "Those that obtained approval by faith obtained life as an OT Saint", which is not in the text.
Now, acknowledge your error.
- Status