Is Everything Predestined?

[Silverhair]

I think it is ambiguous. And yes, it does include free choices (not autonomous) of humans for life or death. That is the way Calvinists preach. In the end, and looking back, was it in some way predetermined? If you really think about it yes, you can get to that point logically. But if you do arrive at that point logically - That does not mean that you are no longer under the clear commands that you read in scripture.

So while it is indeed ambiguous you cannot pick and choose various Calvinistic statements as the only representation of what Calvinism is. It is a fact that high Calvinists like Owen said repeatedly that you have it on the direct promise of God that if you come to him He will save you. No one has any right to say that Calvinists don't believe that. You do have a right to say that it doesn't fit with some of the theological writings or that it doesn't fit the TULIP but it is too much on record how they preached and taught to charge them with declaring that there are some who aren't allowed to come to Christ because they were predestined to be damned.

What you overlook Dave is that what they preach is not what they in fact believe. They can not hold to the TULIP or their divine determinism view and be honest when they preach that all can come to Christ Jesus for salvation.

Why does salvation of certain individuals have to be predetermined? It does not say that in the bible so that is only something that your theology reads into scripture.

You wrote that humans have the free choice of life or death but that is not what Calvinism preaches is it? The only free will, according to Calvinism, that man has is to sin. So no free will for life. Remember your DoG or TULIP is very exclusive as to who will be saved. So once again no real free will so as to be able to choose life.

I agree that Calvinist will preach that if you come to God in faith you will be saved but the problem is that they then bar the vast majority of humanity from even the possibility of salvation by their DoG. Yet they maintain that man is responsible for rejecting God.

 

[AustinC]

Care to explain how the person helps themselves? You have made this claim now more than once and have yet to back it up. Is this just another of your smoke and mirrors answers.

Care to quote the verse that says the man predestinates himself.

Now I know we have verses that show man trusting in Christ Jesus for salvation. Ephesians 1:13-14 and we can also look at Romans 3:21-31 for some clarity on this subject. And further to those we have Romans 10:13-14 that will offer some help in furthering your proper understanding of salvation as you do seem rather confused as to how that comes about.

Explain your humanism. I am not the one who is claiming that God predestines those who first chose God. That's you.
Sliverhair, own your philosophy which promotes man as the one who effects God to save them. Own it, because you preach it constantly.

 

[DaveXR650]

What you overlook Dave is that what they preach is not what they in fact believe. They can not hold to the TULIP or their divine determinism view and be honest when they preach that all can come to Christ Jesus for salvation.

Sure they can. When you get to Heaven, if they tell you that you were part of the elect, and were so from the foundation of time, are you going to be angry? Of course not. The arguments you see on those web sites like soteriology 101 work both ways. They will correctly say it's wrong the way some Calvinists accuse someone who says they just heard the gospel and repented and believed of being guilty of works or usurping the work of the Holy Spirit and they are probably right. By the same token, are you going to be angry with someone who claims they would not have believed except for the direct enlightenment of the Holy Spirit? You have no more right to cast dispersions on their perception of their salvation than they have to do it to you. What gives you the right to claim you know what John Owen believed as he preached in 1650? We have his preaching and his theology. We have to stick to what they said.

 

[37818]

Sure they can.

Intellectually dishonest. And do not see it to be.

 

[Silverhair]

Explain your humanism. I am not the one who is claiming that God predestines those who first chose God. That's you.
Sliverhair, own your philosophy which promotes man as the one who effects God to save them. Own it, because you preach it constantly.

You still do not answer questions do you. If you spent half as much time answering questions as you do dodging them we might actually get somewhere.

Your Gnostic philosophy is getting in the way of you actually learning some truth. I have pointed out the foundation of your Calvinism and you just ignore that truth. Since the root is bad so will be the tree.

You still refuse to believe what the bible says re salvation. Why is that? What do you not believe about Ephesians 1:13-14 or Romans 3:21-31 or Romans 10:13-14? You must think the Holy Spirit got it wrong. Looks like He did not understand your DoG/TULIP philosophy.

Come on Austin you think you have all the answers so quote the verse that says that man predestinates himself. You keep throwing out that old canard so it is time for you to prove your point or fold your tent and sneak off into the dark.

What's that old expression, it's time for you to put up or sh..up. Well I am sure you know how to fill in the blanks.

 

[DaveXR650]

Intellectually dishonest. And do not see it to be.

It would be intellectually dishonest if you, when you hear the preaching were told you may not be able to come to Christ. The Calvinist preachers were careful to invite YOU as a hearer, to come to Christ. They are under no obligation, as part of preaching the gospel to take any kind of position on the extent of the atonement, the irresistibility of grace, or whether or not everyone in the audience is elect. When you hear, you can come. And that's what they preached. What's wrong with that? You are not being turned away - except for the reason that you don't want to come. Now if you don't come they would say you were not elect or not irresistibly called, but still - YOU chose not to come, didn't you. The TULIP hinders no one from being saved.

 

[JonC]

Daniel 11:27-29 shows you how God Sovereignty works.

And as for the two kings, their hearts shall be bent on doing evil. They shall speak lies at the same table, but to no avail, for the end is yet to be at the time appointed. And he shall return to his land with great wealth, but his heart shall be set against the holy covenant. And he shall work his will and return to his own land. “At the time appointed he shall return and come into the south, but it shall not be this time as it was before.

Creation does not effect the Creator.

Nobody said creation affects the Creator.

The problem is when hyper people deny free will or divine sovereignty because in so doing they deny Scripture and have no leg upon which to stand.

Man's plans belong to him, but the future belongs to God.

 

[AustinC]

You still do not answer questions do you. If you spent half as much time answering questions as you do dodging them we might actually get somewhere.

Your Gnostic philosophy is getting in the way of you actually learning some truth. I have pointed out the foundation of your Calvinism and you just ignore that truth. Since the root is bad so will be the tree.

You still refuse to believe what the bible says re salvation. Why is that? What do you not believe about Ephesians 1:13-14 or Romans 3:21-31 or Romans 10:13-14? You must think the Holy Spirit got it wrong. Looks like He did not understand your DoG/TULIP philosophy.

Come on Austin you think you have all the answers so quote the verse that says that man predestinates himself. You keep throwing out that old canard so it is time for you to prove your point or fold your tent and sneak off into the dark.

What's that old expression, it's time for you to put up or sh..up. Well I am sure you know how to fill in the blanks.

Sliverhair, I quoted you. I responded with my understanding of what you said. You agreed with what I understood you to be saying.

Now, you seem to take offense.

I note that you do not deny that you think man effects God to cause God to save them.

You do not deny that you think man predestines himself to be saved, which caused God to save them.

I notice you don't deny any of it.

 

[AustinC]

Nobody said creation affects the Creator.

The problem is when hyper people deny free will or divine sovereignty because in so doing they deny Scripture and have no leg upon which to stand.

Man's plans belong to him, but the future belongs to God.

Jon, I am still waiting for that verse that tells me I have free will to choose God to be my Savior. The only time I ever see free will is with the chosen people, Israel, giving a free will offering to God. So, when you find that verse that explicitly tells me I have free will that causes God to save me, you just share it with us and put this whole debate to bed.

 

[37818]

It would be intellectually dishonest if you, when you hear the preaching were told you may not be able to come to Christ. The Calvinist preachers were careful to invite YOU as a hearer, to come to Christ. They are under no obligation, as part of preaching the gospel to take any kind of position on the extent of the atonement, the irresistibility of grace, or whether or not everyone in the audience is elect. When you hear, you can come. And that's what they preached. What's wrong with that?

"That" being what? You have effectively presented a complex question.

 

[DaveXR650]

"That" being what? You have effectively presented a complex question.

"That" being that as long as YOU as an individual are offered forgiveness and reconciliation if you come to Christ there is no reason to complain that the overall Calvinistic theology does anyone wrong because of the TULIP or the doctrines of grace. The anti-Calvinist argument that people make is that until they are convinced God is satisfying them in the equity of the gospel offer they won't be interested is a non-argument. We don't do that with anything else. If you're floating down the river on the roof of your house and a helicopter shows up overhead and lowers a rope you don't say "Wait a minute, are you going to go to all the other houses floating down the river? Because unless you are, I'm not interested".

 

[AustinC]

"That" being what? You have effectively presented a complex question.

37,DaveX is like a wave on the ocean, he's never going to provide anything solid for a person to hold onto.

 

[Silverhair]

Sliverhair, I quoted you. I responded with my understanding of what you said. You agreed with what I understood you to be saying.

Now, you seem to take offense.

I note that you do not deny that you think man effects God to cause God to save them.

You do not deny that you think man predestines himself to be saved, which caused God to save them.

I notice you don't deny any of it.

You remind me of some of the ones I taught. You avoid the question and then attack the person. It is not me that says God responds to our faith, it is the bible. You have a real problem trusting what the bible says.

The Righteousness of God Through Faith
Rom_3:21-31
I believe man has the capacity to respond willingly to God’s means of seeking to save the lost, NOT that man would seek God if left alone.

I believe our gracious God is actively working in and through creation, conscience, His bride, His Holy Spirit filled followers, and His Word to aid humanity in their conversion.

I believe salvation is wholly of God in that He owes no man forgiveness or eternal life, even if they freely repent and humbly submit to Him as Lord and Savior.

Asking for forgiveness no more merits that forgiveness than the prodigal son’s return home merited the reception he received from his father.

The false belief that forgiveness is somehow owed to those who freely humble themselves and ask for it leads to erroneous conclusions.

Faith in Christ Jesus is not a work, it is not meritorious but it is God's condition for salvation.


Perhaps now you will get past your silly canard but I doubt that you will. You are stuck in your Gnostic philosophy and you will only see the world through those fogged glasses.

 

[DaveXR650]

37,DaveX is like a wave on the ocean, he's never going to provide anything solid for a person to hold onto.

If you come to Christ he will save you. That is rather solid I think. And I say a Calvinist can say that with NO qualifications. Do you agree?

 

[JonC]

Jon, I am still waiting for that verse that tells me I have free will to choose God to be my Savior. The only time I ever see free will is with the chosen people, Israel, giving a free will offering to God. So, when you find that verse that explicitly tells me I have free will that causes God to save me, you just share it with us and put this whole debate to bed.

Why are you asking me? I didn't say either way.

My only disagreement with your post here is that I believe men chose to reject what was revealed to them of God and that all are guilty. You don't believe men have that capacity to choose, therefore posses no true guilt for rejecting God

When it comes to men making their choices but God controlling the outcome, well ...I have no problem with those passages.

Do you cut them out of your Bible, strike through them with a pen, or simply ignore them?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

If there is one tiny thing, one molecule, outside of God's absolute control, then He ceases to be Almighty God.
I think it was your own lovely Ben Franklin who wrote:
'For want of a nail, the shoe was lost;
For want of a shoe, the horse was lost;
For want of a horse, the rider was lost;
For want of a rider the battle was lost;
For want of a battle, the kingdom was lost;
And all for the want of a horseshoe nail.'

But God is totally in control of His universe: 'Remember the former things of old, for I am God and there is no other; I am God and there is none like Me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things that are not yet done, saying, "My counsel will stand, and I will do all my pleasure," calling a bird of prey from the east, the man [Cyrus] who executes Mt counsel, from a far country, Indeed, I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it,; I will also do it.' Isaiah 46:9-11.

But God's control is far more subtle than some here give Him credit for. He has ordered all things according to His good pleasure without interfering with man's 'free will.' If anyone can't see howw He does that, it just shows that he is not as clever as God is (Genesis 50:20; 1 Kings 22:34; Acts of the Apostles 4:27-28).

 

[Martin Marprelate]

If you come to Christ he will save you. That is rather solid I think. And I say a Calvinist can say that with NO qualifications. Do you agree?

Absolutely right! John 6:37; Acts of the Apostles 2:21; 16:31; Romans 10:31; Revelation 22:17.
Unless someone has actually been up to heaven, had a quick look at the Lamb's Book of Life and found his name missing, he can take the Lord Jesus at His word and come. He will not turn him away.
Of course, when he comes, he will find that God has loved him with an everlasting love and therefore drawn him with lovingkindness (Jeremiah 31:3).

 

[JonC]

If there is one tiny thing, one molecule, outside of God's absolute control, then He ceases to be Almighty God.
I think it was your own lovely Ben Franklin who wrote:
'For want of a nail, the shoe was lost;
For want of a shoe, the horse was lost;
For want of a horse, the rider was lost;
For want of a rider the battle was lost;
For want of a battle, the kingdom was lost;
And all for the want of a horseshoe nail.'

But God is totally in control of His universe: 'Remember the former things of old, for I am God and there is no other; I am God and there is none like Me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things that are not yet done, saying, "My counsel will stand, and I will do all my pleasure," calling a bird of prey from the east, the man [Cyrus] who executes Mt counsel, from a far country, Indeed, I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it,; I will also do it.' Isaiah 46:9-11.

But God's control is far more subtle than some here give Him credit for. He has ordered all things according to His good pleasure without interfering with man's 'free will.' If anyone can't see howw He does that, it just shows that he is not as clever as God is (Genesis 50:20; 1 Kings 22:34; Acts of the Apostles 4:27-28).

I doubt people believe there are things out of God's control (in this discussion).

But there does seem to be people who reject the truth that people make free choices (which is to deny Scripture).

I've been around long enough to be able to echo Surgeon's complaint that many (per Spurgeon, often immature Christians) read of the truth of divine sovereignty and magnify that truth out of all biblical bounds. At the same time, I've seen Christians completely ignore God's sovereignty.

What both sides ignore is the fact this is an "either or" debate only if one believes the mind of God is no greater than man's.

 

[37818]

"That" being that as long as YOU as an individual are offered forgiveness and reconciliation if you come to Christ there is no reason to complain that the overall Calvinistic theology does anyone wrong because of the TULIP or the doctrines of grace. The anti-Calvinist argument that people make is that until they are convinced God is satisfying them in the equity of the gospel offer they won't be interested is a non-argument. We don't do that with anything else. If you're floating down the river on the roof of your house and a helicopter shows up overhead and lowers a rope you don't say "Wait a minute, are you going to go to all the other houses floating down the river? Because unless you are, I'm not interested".

Unless it is understood, Christ paid for one's sins, there can be no grounds to believe. Romans 5:8.

 

[DaveXR650]

Unless it is understood, Christ paid for one's sins, there can be no grounds to believe. Romans 5:8.

I can see how you might arrive at that. A lot would depend on what people have told you about the atonement already. So I'm not going to knock you for that. Most Reformed Baptists would have no trouble telling you that "Christ has died" and salvation is available if you will come to Him. I, myself, have no trouble telling you "Christ has died for you". But I'm not a theologian, just a civilian so to speak. I am not totally convinced of the "L" in the TULIP. But none of that matters if Christ Himself has told you to come to him.