Justification by Faith

[Alan Gross]

but it would be absurd to say God saves those whose faith He does not credit as righteousness.

I was looking for a word for it.

"Absurd".

Whether you try to say, "God saves those whose faith He does not credit as righteousness."

or
"God saves those whose faith He does not credit as righteousness."

Who else has ever tried to say these kind of words, by you, Van?

Shouldn't we consider that to be approaching something that is related to the "absurd"?

The question we should ask is does God utilize faith which He does not credit as righteousness or faith that He did credit as righteousness?

Since you are the only one that talks about "God utilize faith"(?)

and that talks about,
"faith which He does not credit as righteousness"

or that has ever talked about "faith that He did credit as righteousness",

I, for one, am going to suggest that you might be asking the wrong question, all together.

It doesn't make sense that you would be the only person on earth with this supposed process by which salvation is gained by a lost soul.

The bible is clear spiritually dead people are chosen for salvation through faith. 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

"spiritually dead people" have spiritually dead "faith" they may "utilize"

...it is just that spiritually dead souls are making a null and void carnal effort of fleshly works if they think they can attempt to have spiritually dead "faith" in God, Who is Spirit, and in the Spirit Realm, that is absolutely inaccessible and unable to be reached or entered, by the spiritually dead.

Why would they need to be "chosen for salvation", after they utilize spiritually dead "faith".

They are not saved or chosen "after they are saved", either one "through faith" that has no soundness in it and is still spiritually dead.

Cause: "God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation"

Process: "through sanctification of the Spirit"

Result: "belief of the truth:"

...

"that" in Ephesians 2:8-9

Where did he take "through faith"?

While your Doctor is dealing in the things of God, such as the Way to Eternal Salvation, and he gratuitously deletes "through faith" from the phase, "by Grace are you saved, through faith", I just hope it wasn't him that is calling "that" a noun(?)

..."it, she, he, they, that, those,…are demonstrative pronouns or relative pronouns or they are a determiner in a noun phase, like the, "that", here, in Ephesians 2:8,

... and this determiner in a noun phase is substituting for the noun phrase, "for by Grace are you saved, through faith".

Behold!

And as long as, we brought up "for by Grace are you saved", you or the Dr. haven't deleted Ephesians 2:10, that is in the immediate context, I hope;

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus".

Both Ephesians 2:8 & 10 flow right together saying the same thing about where Eternal Salvation comes from;

8 "For by grace are ye saved...it is the gift of God"

& "10 "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus".

And Ephesians 8 & 9 are both in the flow of things showing where Eternal Salvation does not originate,

8:b "that not of yourselves:"

& 9; "Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Boasting is a prohibited no-no, from the fact that it is impossible for the saved or lost to successfully do...whether or not they are dependant on their interpretation of a pronoun for their 'Eternal Salvation'.

I also hope that you would't be boasting, would you, when you came up with, "God utilizing your faith which He credit as righteousness(?)

Because, the Bible says that the Activity of God is imperative to initiate the action in Eternal Salvation, "1 "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

5 "Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved"

...

Now, what would you like to delete and prohibit from among a selected portions of what I have said?

 

[Alan Gross]

The Bible is clear that a dead person cannot exert faith.

A dead person is in a state of sin.

We, and our forefathers describe them as having Total Inability, in the London Confession of Faith and before, since the time of Adam in the day when God said he would surely die, and sure enough he did, but not physically, so how?

And why are we talking about "faith", when sin causes a Spiritual death of a soul that now has an Inability to do anything Spiritual?

We need to talk about sin.

God must cause and man must be effected by what God causes.

God saves by Grace when He Pardons a Spiritual dead sinner's sin.

A lost sinner is only able to be Justified after God gives them the Pardon of their sin, by Grace in Him when He applies the Work and blood of Jesus to their soul.

Their soul is then "in Christ" and they are actually credited for Righteousness, because of their own soul being made Perfect, that is now "in Christ", already.

The means that God uses to effect Salvation in a lost soul is by enabling that, otherwise, spiritually dead soul, to hear the Word of God, and Repentance of their SIN is given to them as a gift and Faith, which is compatible with Repentance is also given to them, at the same time.

Through faith, is not the cause

Through faith is part of means God uses, as above, logically, after a sinner is Pardoned from their sin, by Grace, Justified, and made Righteous, in Christ.

Logically, God is the Cause of the New Birth.

Jesus does not say, "go for it and utilize your "dead faith", because it is not compatible with God, Who is Spirit.

He simply uses an imperative, to say this must happen and not a command when He says, "you must be Born again".

Through faith is the effect by which salvation is known by the person whom God saved by grace alone

"We're saved by Grace", not "by faith", but through the means that God uses as the result of His Activity Causes the saving and Pardoning the SIN of the sinner's soul.

"We're saved by Grace", "through faith", through the means that God gives by the Holy Spirit in the New Birth, which are Repentance and Faith.

The soul has already been Justified, after the Pardon of sin, when God tells us the means He has used, when He says we have been and are now, "Justified by faith".

Logically and Chronologically, the light switch has to be activated before electricity is applied to the dead light bulb.

Every time.

Repeating bogus views is the sine qua non of Reformed Theology.

I am not of the Reformed Theology camp although we mostly agree on salvation being Caused by God.

Jesus is the Savior.

Salvation is not dependant on a lost sinner having spiritually dead faith.

They all do.

Can God choose someone through faith if the person has no faith to be used?

God chooses no one through faith, so He wouldn't say He does and He doesn't.

A person has no faith to be used or utilized by God, so He overpowers our spiritual dead condition.

Thank God.

We're found spiritually dead in sin.

We need to talk about "sin".

Is being saved by grace at issue?

I depends on if the spiritually dead sinner is said to be spiritually dead, or that they are "spiritually dead unless they decided to be Spiritually Alive enough to Quicken themselves to Eternal Life, with the power of Life over Death that Jesus obtained through His Perfect Live being given as a Substitutionary Sacrifice to Satisfy God's Justice, as if they are already sinless partakers of the Divine Nature, instead of being lost, in sin, and without strength, godless, and blind.

Justification by Faith is the topic

Tell you what, if you tell me you believe that "dead" means "alive", I will put you on "Ignore", like I do everyone else that gives evidence of their Total Depravity, in that way.

If our placing our faith in Christ does not automatically save us, then God must credit our faith as righteousness and spiritually place us “in Christ” which saves us because in Christ we receive the justification to life provided by Christ. Wow now that is a systematic theology that fits with all scripture.

"God must credit our faith" "fits with all scripture" only if God bows to that as a command to Him and He writes it into the Bible.

My guess is that you are the only one doing the rewriting.

 

[Silverhair]

Ephesians 2:8. 'For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.'
Acts 2:21, quoting Joel 2:30. And it shall come to pass that whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.'
Acts 16:31. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.....'

Far from having our faith reviewed by God to see if it is good enough, the fact is that faith is the gift of God and He only gives good gifts to His children (Matthew 7:7-11).

Martin who has faith, who calls on the Lord, who believes? It is the person that has to do this. Now if we go by your logic we have people saved before they believe and that is not what the bible say is it?

Righteousness of God Through Faith

Rom 3:21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
Rom 3:25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
Rom 3:26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Gal 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE"—
Gal 3:14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Gal 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

 

[AustinC]

Martin who has faith, who calls on the Lord, who believes? It is the person that has to do this.

How does a spiritually dead person do this, Sliverhair?
Is God the cause of making a person alive, while they were dead?

Or, is man the cause in that while they were dead, they exercised faith to believe?

Which is it?

I know what Ephesians 2:4-5 tells us.

 

[Alan Gross]

Or, is man the cause in that while they were dead, they exercised faith to believe?

Yeah, there has been an potentially Eternally FATAL change, if someone is dependant on the state of their soul actually believing:

"you will He quicken, who just believe they are not dead in their trespasses and sins"(?)

 

[Silverhair]

How does a spiritually dead person do this, Sliverhair?
Is God the cause of making a person alive, while they were dead?

Or, is man the cause in that while they were dead, they exercised faith to believe?

Which is it?

I know what Ephesians 2:4-5 tells us.

How does a spiritually dead person do this, Sliverhair?
Is God the cause of making a person alive, while they were dead?

Or, is man the cause in that while they were dead, they exercised faith to believe?

Which is it?

I know what Ephesians 2:4-5 tells us.

What's the matter Austin don't you believe the bible?
Are these not the same people that you said could not trust?
Spiritually dead does not mean unable to hear and respond but it does mean separated from God which we all are before we are saved.

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
Eph 2:2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
Eph 2:3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

These seem like quite lively dead people to me. And these are the same ones that are:

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

And this would be the same gospel that Paul preached

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

The same gospel that leads to salvation

Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

 

[Van]

God doesn't choose through faith, Van.
.

Yet another unrepentant denial of 2 Thessalonians 2:13. And not one Reformed Theology poster is willing to stand up for God's word.

 

[Van]

Still no answer how someone could be chosen by utilizing faith in the truth, (2 Thessalonians 2:13) without first having faith to be utilized. The gift of pre-salvation faith is a fiction and no passage, certainly not Matthew 7:7-11, even suggests the idea.

 

[Van]

When big crowds came to hear Jesus, they were seeking God. When deniers of God's word say scripture says no one ever seeks God, they may actually be so blinded by their bias they think the crowds came seeking to hear falsehoods.

 

[AustinC]

When big crowds came to hear Jesus, they were seeking God. When deniers of God's word say scripture says no one ever seeks God, they may actually be so blinded by their bias they think the crowds came seeking to hear falsehoods.

No, they were not seeking God. The crowds were seeking an anointed King, a Messiah, that would overthrow the Roman Empire and set Israel up as the great Kingdom on earth. When Jesus told them who he was and what he was going to do...they left him, accused him, and crucified him.

 

[AustinC]

Yet another unrepentant denial of 2 Thessalonians 2:13. And not one Reformed Theology poster is willing to stand up for God's word.

What are we denying, Van?
Do we deny God chose us?
Do we deny that in choosing us we are the first fruits (the OT would say the first born)?
Do we deny that the Spirit has set us apart and caused us to believe?
Do we deny that God called us to this sanctification and belief?

What are we denying?

*2 Thessalonians 2:11-14*
Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the first fruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Van, you have created a doctrine that is not stated in 2 Thessalonians 2.

 

[AustinC]

What's the matter Austin don't you believe the bible?
Are these not the same people that you said could not trust?
Spiritually dead does not mean unable to hear and respond but it does mean separated from God which we all are before we are saved.

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
Eph 2:2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
Eph 2:3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

These seem like quite lively dead people to me. And these are the same ones that are:

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

And this would be the same gospel that Paul preached

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

The same gospel that leads to salvation

Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

What's the matter? Can't, or won't answer the question?

How does a spiritually dead person do this, Sliverhair?

Is God the cause of making a person alive, while they were dead?

Or, is man the cause in that while they were dead, they exercised faith to believe?

Which is it?

I know what Ephesians 2:4-5 tells us.

 

[Van]

No, they were not seeking God. The crowds were seeking an anointed King, a Messiah, that would overthrow the Roman Empire and set Israel up as the great Kingdom on earth. When Jesus told them who he was and what he was going to do...they left him, accused him, and crucified him.

Such ignorance, you really have not studied the topic!

Luke 9:43 (NASB)
And they were all amazed at the greatness of God.
But while everyone was astonished at all that He was doing, He said to His disciples,

To claim they all came seeking an earthly king is an outrageous falsehood of the highest order. When big crowds came to hear Jesus, they were seeking God. When deniers of God's word say scripture says no one ever seeks God, they may actually be so blinded by their bias they think the crowds came seeking to hear falsehoods.

Did God choose individuals for salvation through faith in the truth, a conditional election? Yes, 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

 

[AustinC]

Such ignorance, you really have not studied the topic!

Luke 9:43 (NASB)
And they were all amazed at the greatness of God.
But while everyone was astonished at all that He was doing, He said to His disciples,

To claim they all came seeking an earthly king is an outrageous falsehood of the highest order. When big crowds came to hear Jesus, they were seeking God. When deniers of God's word say scripture says no one ever seeks God, they may actually be so blinded by their bias they think the crowds came seeking to hear falsehoods.

Did God choose individuals for salvation through faith in the truth, a conditional election? Yes, 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

Clearly you know very little about what Israel was looking for in a Messiah.
I have made my point. I do not expect to soften your hard heart.

 

[Alan Gross]

8:b "that not of yourselves:"

& 9; "Not of works, lest any man should boast."

"God must credit our faith" looks like highly swelled up boasting to me.

He simply uses an imperative, to say this must happen and not a command when He says, "you must be Born again".

"You must be Born again" is what God says.

It is quite an alteration to say, "God must credit our faith".

They are infinintly different.

Jesus does not say, "go for it and utilize your "dead faith", because it is not compatible with God, Who is Spirit.

To this day.

"God must credit our faith"

Are you saying by this that your "faith" is in your "belief"?

..."your faith" is "your faith in what you believe"?

 

[Van]

Clearly you know very little about what Israel was looking for in a Messiah.
I have made my point. I do not expect to soften your hard heart.

Once again the denial of the very words of scripture. The crowd was amazed at the greatness of God, not the greatness of an earthly king.

 

[AustinC]

Once again the denial of the very words of scripture. The crowd was amazed at the greatness of God, not the greatness of an earthly king.

No denial of scripture, but an understanding of the whole counsel of God and what the Jews were looking for.

Van, it's clear that you are desperately searching for any loophole in an attempt to make your failed theology somehow more relevant beyond the distance between your two ears.
You refuse to listen to anyone so feel free to be objectively wrong.

 

[Van]

No denial of scripture, but an understanding of the whole counsel of God and what the Jews were looking for.

Van, it's clear that you are desperately searching for any loophole in an attempt to make your failed theology somehow more relevant beyond the distance between your two ears.
You refuse to listen to anyone so feel free to be objectively wrong.

What is clear is you address my behavior rather than Gold's word.
You use this phrase "whole counsel of God" to claim the verse does not mean what it says because some other verse indicates something different. The ploy is simply an effort to nullify God's word as clearly stated. Crowds seeking God gathered to hear Jesus and obtain blessings such as healing.

Luke 9:43 (NASB)
And they were all amazed at the greatness of God.
But while everyone was astonished at all that He was doing, He said to His disciples,

To claim they all came seeking an earthly king is an outrageous falsehood of the highest order. When big crowds came to hear Jesus, they were seeking God. When deniers of God's word say scripture says no one ever seeks God, they may actually be so blinded by their bias they think the crowds came seeking to hear falsehoods.

Did God choose individuals for salvation through faith in the truth, a conditional election? Yes, 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

If our placing our faith in Christ does not automatically save us, then God must credit our faith as righteousness and spiritually place us “into Christ” which saves us, because in Christ we receive the justification to life provided by Christ. Wow now that is a systematic theology that fits with all scripture.

 

[AustinC]

What is clear is you address my behavior rather than Gold's word.
You use this phrase "whole counsel of God" to claim the verse does not mean what it says because some other verse indicates something different. The ploy is simply an effort to nullify God's word as clearly stated. Crowds seeking God gathered to hear Jesus and obtain blessings such as healing.

Luke 9:43 (NASB)
And they were all amazed at the greatness of God.
But while everyone was astonished at all that He was doing, He said to His disciples,

To claim they all came seeking an earthly king is an outrageous falsehood of the highest order. When big crowds came to hear Jesus, they were seeking God. When deniers of God's word say scripture says no one ever seeks God, they may actually be so blinded by their bias they think the crowds came seeking to hear falsehoods.

Did God choose individuals for salvation through faith in the truth, a conditional election? Yes, 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

If our placing our faith in Christ does not automatically save us, then God must credit our faith as righteousness and spiritually place us “into Christ” which saves us, because in Christ we receive the justification to life provided by Christ. Wow now that is a systematic theology that fits with all scripture.

Sigh, I have shown you God's word for a long time and yet here you are, looking for a loophole to promote Vanology.

 

[Alan Gross]

Having filthy rag spiritually dead "faith that is unRegenerated results in being unRegenerated.

Having unRegenerated faith can only result in obtaining an unRegenerated state of faith.

Having unRegenerated faith is not the cause of Regeneration.

That would be Regenerating faith coming from unRegenerating faith.

Like a dead rock turning into a monkey.