Transubstantion

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

Verse, no. I have been quoting from memory mostly. I’d have to hunt through for verse numbers, it’s not that easy for me.

This might bear some explaining, that is, being able to post a lot, but not having easy enough access to the Bible. Are you unable to search online?

This site has a Bible tab with fairly easy reference to all its books (KJV). Just hover the mouse over Books and you get a flyout menu; scroll and select, then pick your chapter number.

 

[Salty]

See John 6:48-58 below, which the controversy centers around. Cathode quoted 6:55 &56 (in bold), but then cited the entire chapter giving broad context (see post #7, which created a link).

48 I am that bread of life. ...

So, are these verses telling us that the bread literally becomes the body of Christ and that the juice/wine physically becomes the blood of Christ.?

Or is it just figurative language aka a metaphor?

 

[37818]

John 6:37-68 is about coming to and believing in Christ to have eternal life, He being the true manna from heaven. Has nothing to do with the Passover remembrance.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

So, are these verses telling us that the bread literally becomes the body of Christ and that the juice/wine physically becomes the blood of Christ.?

Or is it just figurative language aka a metaphor?

The following passage should also be considered in this discussion, as it deals with correcting some abuse at the Lord's Supper.

Paul was appointed by the Lord to pass this on after having received it directly from the Lord.

1 Corinthians 11:17-34

17 In the following directives I have no praise for you, for your meetings do more harm than good. 18 In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it. 19 No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God’s approval. 20 So then, when you come together, it is not the Lord’s Supper you eat, 21 for when you are eating, some of you go ahead with your own private suppers. As a result, one person remains hungry and another gets drunk. 22 Don’t you have homes to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God by humiliating those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you? Certainly not in this matter!

23 For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

27 So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28 Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup. 29 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves. 30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. 31 But if we were more discerning with regard to ourselves, we would not come under such judgment. 32 Nevertheless, when we are judged in this way by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be finally condemned with the world.

33 So then, my brothers and sisters, when you gather to eat, you should all eat together. 34 Anyone who is hungry should eat something at home, so that when you meet together it may not result in judgment.

And when I come I will give further directions.​

 

[Cathode]

Cathode, the meat Jesus and the disciples ate at Passover every year was not the actual Passover Lamb from the days of slavery in Egypt. The meal called them to...remembrance.
So it is with the Lord's supper. It's a call to remembrance. Jesus even tells you that upfront. The figurative language is oozing from Jesus as he connects the Passover Lamb to Himself and the New Covenant to His sacrificial death, which purchased us, the firstborn of God. We are the Levitical line of Christ. Priests under the High Priest.

How did the Israelites understand the word “ Remembrance “. The Passover for them was the same night.
This night is different, it is a night when all Israel past to present is united.

The Passover is made present to all Israel down the ages.

Jesus didn’t hold up a lamb, He held up bread and declared it to be His Body, the wine He declared was His Blood.
At the celebration of the Old Covenant feast, Jesus established His New Covenant feast.
No words of Christ can go out and be unfulfilled. When Jesus declared the Bread to be His Body, it became His Body, same with the wine becoming His Blood.

Jesus creates reality by the power of His word, Protestants and Baptist’s I think don’t truly understand just how powerful Jesus is. I think this is the heart of the problem. Jesus speaking isn’t the same as anyone else speaking. Jesus has the same power as The Father who spoke the universe into existence.

When Jesus says that His flesh is real food and blood real drink, that is the reality, no matter what you or anyone else thinks.

Instead of having Faith in Jesus words, people try to rationalise it and only end up denying Jesus Word.

 

[Salty]

.

When Jesus says that His flesh is real food and blood real drink, that is the reality, no matter what you or anyone else thinks.

Instead of having Faith in Jesus words, people try to rationalise it and only end up denying Jesus Word.

So, does Jesus also physically become a door?

BTW - Jesus did not ever say " (My) flesh is real food...

Keep in mind that communion was not meant to eat for nourishment -

So lets see if you will finally answer at least one of the questions I have asked.

 

[Cathode]

John 6:37-68 is about coming to and believing in Christ to have eternal life, He being the true manna from heaven. Has nothing to do with the Passover remembrance.

It has everything to do with the New Covenant feast Jesus established at the Passover.

The first condition for receiving Jesus flesh and blood, is believing Jesus flesh is real food and blood real drink. Believing Jesus words is “believing in Jesus “.

Those that walked away had no Faith in Jesus words. These were like those invited to the feast, but made their excuses not to. Mainly that they thought Jesus was crazy.

Judas didn’t have faith in Jesus words either, but what was different is he didn’t walk off like the others, he tried to attend this feast without the garment of Faith.

“ Did I not choose you twelve, yet one of you is a devil “

“ But some of you refuse to have faith in me." Jesus said this, because from the beginning he knew who would have faith in him. He also knew which one would betray him “

When did Judas betray Jesus, at which future moment.

“When Judas had eaten the bread, Satan entered into him. Then Jesus told him, “Hurry and do what you’re going to do.”

So instead of entering Covenant Communion with Christ when Judas ate Jesus Body, by not believing Jesus words in Faith, Satan entered Judas.

This is the singularity of Faith that all men must pass. There is no other way into this feast, but believe Jesus words above all else, that is “ believing in Christ “.

The walk always said “ How can this man give us his flesh to eat “

Mistake 1: Jesus isn’t just a “ man “ He is God as well.
Mistake 2: stems from the first, not truly believing in Jesus Divinity will make human minds consider all the practical, cultural and even religious and scientific reasons why Jesus words would be false and impossible. The flesh profits nothing, human reason can not take you to where Faith will carry you.

Those that walked away were the most honest in a way. They didn’t try to rationalise Jesus Words to mask their unbelief. It was a hard teaching, who could even listen to it.
Human flesh ain’t kosher, nor even but especially blood, nor would there be enough of Jesus flesh and blood to go around, nor can we see a scientific change in the bread and wine. All these human considerations prevent Faith in Jesus words. Protestants have said these things to me all the time.

Judas stayed with Jesus but in unbelief of His words, and entered the feast without the garment of Faith. But be like Peter at that moment of hard teaching, make a supernatural act of Faith in Jesus Words.

“ You have THE WORDS of Everlasting Life “ Who else can we go to or trust.

Jesus words stand for all time and Eternity, not for you to doubt, but believe and live.

“Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away “

Do not say in your hearts ‘ Lord, why did you have say those words that way, because now we have stupid deluded Catholics running around saying that your flesh is real food and blood real drink, how are we now to convince them otherwise ‘.

This is not the way to approach these Words of Christ, you must confront every doubt in your inner most part and reject them all, and enter the singularity of Faith with total abandonment and trust in Jesus words. Receive the garment and take your place. Believe.

At Judgement, if the Lord asks you why you believed that His Flesh is real food and blood real drink to eat and drink unto life Eternal.

Tell Him, ‘ You said it, and I believed it. You have the words of Everlasting Life ‘.

 

[Cathode]

See John 6:48-58 below, which the controversy centers around. Cathode quoted 6:55 &56 (in bold), but then cited the entire chapter giving broad context (see post #7, which created a link).

48 I am that bread of life.

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

Thanks mate, I’ll copy and paste it to notes.

 

[Cathode]

So, does Jesus also physically become a door?

Jesus said He was THE DOOR, THE GATE not A DOOR, A GATE. This is easily understood.

BTW - Jesus did not ever say " (My) flesh is real food...

Yes He did. John 6:55

For those with the 1611 KJV, you will find an English language quirk that refers to meat as food in general.

“ For My Flesh is meat indeed “

“The word meat comes from the Old English word mete, which referred to food in general. “ Wiki on the Word meat.

“Indeed” has synonymous meanings; Truly, actually, really, definitely, certainly, surely, verily, undoubtedly, precisely, emphatically, absolutely, exactly, etc.

The modern English translation reads “ My Flesh is real food “.

You could say ‘ My Flesh is Truly food’ ‘ really food ‘ , ‘ actually food ‘, ‘ definitely food ‘, ‘ verily food ‘. Etc.

Keep in mind that communion was not meant to eat for nourishment -

Yes it is. Spiritual nourishment.

“Your ancestors ate manna in the desert and died. But standing here before you is the true Bread that comes out of heaven, and when you eat this Bread you will never die. I alone am this living Bread that has come to you from heaven. Eat this Bread and you will live forever.”

“and the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”

“ He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood, has eternal life and I raise him up on the Last Day “

Jesus is not just Spirit but also flesh and blood in His entirety, it is Jesus Himself that gives His Life to us in Covenant Communion.

 

[Salty]

The KJV does not used the word "real"

In John 19:30, Jesus said "IT IS FINISHED"
In the OT - a lamb had to be slain over and over.
When Jesus shed his blood on the Cross the price of sin had been fully paid for.
NEVER again did blood have to be shed.

You may want to listen to Dr Vernon McGee
(BTW McGee is NOT a Baptist.)

Since the Blood no longer needs to be shed,
when the Bible mentions this is is a metaphor

This is the Baptist Board. We do allow other opinions, however we need to stop
when the points have made. Which has happens on both sides of the issue.

Thus this thread is closed.

This subject will not be brought up again for at least 90 days ( at least till after 19 Jun)