Featured The Sovereignty of God is Absolute

CHAPTER 3; OF GOD’S DECREE LBCF 1689

Paragraph 1. God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass;

Chapter III.Of God’s Eternal Decree. WCF 1646

I. God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass:

@KenH well at least it seems you are willing to admit that under your Calvinist view God is the actual author of sin. But as you can see from the WCF & the LBCF Calvinists that do not hold as strict a view as you do would also, if they are honest with themselves, have to admit that the Calvinist theology make s God the author of sin. Either that or they have to say the authors of the LCBF & WCF got it wrong.

 

Genesis 50:20. "As for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive."

 

Martin that is a nice verse but how is it relevant to this topic?

 

Genesis 50:20 might be relevant because it completely blows away the idea that God directly causes every single action Himself or else He is not sovereign over every outcome. You simply cannot read the story of Joseph and not see on one hand men acting freely and doing evil by their own free will and yet God completely able to have His plan work out according to His will.

 

@DaveXR650 therein lays the problem for the Calvinist.They want God to control everything "The whole truth is that every event, circumstance, opportunity, happening, and thought, whether good or bad, that influences and motivates man's choice is foreordained of God" and then say well no not really. The problem for the Calvinist is that they are trusting in what Augustine or Calvin said rather than trusting what God has said. The average Calvinist treats the Holy Spirit as if He was to dumb to really know what He wanted to say so they have to correct it for Him. That is the height of arrogance.

Now as a bible believer I can say that God has a plan and He is working it out as we can see in the biblical text. Contrary to the Calvinist divine determinism God ** who is actually sovereign ** is able to give man a real free will and still be sovereign and He can and does accomplish His plan with mans free will.

 

“Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a Man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know—this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. But God raised Him from the dead, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power."
Peter in Acts 2:22–24 NASB​

Sin is that which is opposed to the very nature of God.
The Scriptures are filled with examples of that rebellion.
Sin--all sin--is ultimately against God (Psalm 51:3-4) and contradicts his holiness.

Yet he who knows the beginning and the end, is in control; his plan that cannot be thwarted (Daniel 4:35).
And he has given mankind the command to choose.

Rob

 

As you have noticed there is a wide range of an individual's interpretation of what it means to determine or to ordain something. I have said before that in my opinion a weakness of Calvinism is the extreme determinism that SOME have. But not all. I have no problem with God using men's disobedient plots and actions to accomplish His will. And I believe their actions were done freely and are on them. I just believe that those disobedient actions were know by God. They did not surprise God. And He chose to allow those men to complete such actions and such actions did not make God change His sovereign plans. Therefore I say that God "ordained" all those actions. They were ordained because the actions indeed end up being part of Gods sovereign plans - just like above where Deacon put the scripture in about Christ's death. I don't think there is a lot of difference in the way you, and Deacon, and I see this. I do think the choices made are real.

 

Dave I can agree with much of what you have said up to the point of God "ordaining" their actions. While I agree that God knows all that will happen, He is omniscient after all, I do not believe that He ordains their actions as that would make God the author of sin and that cannot be. God works out His plan in spite of the free actions of man. If God ordains man's sinful actions how can man be held responsible for those actions. For me there is a vast difference between God foreknowing what will happen and God ordaining something to happen.

I really do not see how you can avoid that problem unless you have a different meaning for ordained than I do.

 

That is because God is more clever than you are.
Because you do not see how a thing can be, it does not mean that it cannot be.
Matthew 10:29. 'Are not two sparrows sold for a copper coin? And not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father's will.' Not apart from His foreknowledge, but apart from His will.
'Do not fear therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows.'

 

So much for a non answer there Martin. Calvinists put forward a theory that has no merit and then complain when others tell you your theology is made of hole cloth. The Cognitive Dissonance that is displayed by the average Calvinist is, to say the least, astounding.

I find your comments actually rather funny. You said "Because you do not see how a thing can be, it does not mean that it cannot be." but when you are shown scripture that indicates man has a real free will you say that cannot be. Do Calvinists not understand what it means for God to be sovereign? Is He only allowed to do what Calvinists say He can do?

Here we have a good example of the Calvinist mindset "The whole truth is that every event, circumstance, opportunity, happening, and thought, whether good or bad, that influences and motivates man's choice is foreordained of God" Now that does not leave a lot of wiggle room does it. Everything is determined and controlled by God and yet you then turn around and say man must have the ability to overthrow God because he can sin on his own but at the same time he can not on his own choose to follow God. You Calvinists do have a strange way of looking at things. I have been told that Calvinists were logical thinkers but from what I have seen and heard I think it would be better to say they are illogical thinkers.

Joh 6:35 Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.
Joh 6:36 "But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe.
Joh 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
Joh 6:38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
Joh 6:39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
Joh 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

Now Martin what is the will of God, that only some can come to Christ or that all have the ability to come to Christ? For whom did Christ die?

 

So you want God to be the only actor which means that He would be only sinner.
This is what your view really is
GOD IS TOTALLY ABSOLUTELY DETERMINISTIC - ALL THE TIME!!!
ALL THE TIME - GOD IS TOTALLY ABSOLUTELY DETERMINISTIC!!!

Ken you have a warped view of the sovereignty of God. You seem to think sovereign means determiner of all that happens.

You think this is the truth "The whole truth is that every event, circumstance, opportunity, happening, and thought, whether good or bad, that influences and motivates man's choice is foreordained of God." but in actuality it is just illogical Calvinist thinking.

This is God responding to what man has done, he trusted in Christ Jesus for his salvation.

Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Rom 3:25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,
Rom 3:26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

God justifies man because he has faith not so that he will have faith.

Rom 10:13 For "WHOEVER CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED."

God saves those that call on Him, He does not save them then make them call. You do not seem to trust what the bible says Ken. Your theological view has clouded your ability to understand scripture.

 

I don't know why you keep asking me the same question over and over again, expecting that I will give you a different answer. John 6:40 is absolutely true and I preached this morning assuring people that if they will only trust in Christ for salvation He will most certainly not turn them away. My preaching is by no means as good as the preaching of Bunyan, Whitefield, Spurgeon or Lloyd-Jones, but it is the same Gospel. 'Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.' But the fact is that however well it is preached, men and women will not obey it unless God opens their hearts to do so. Thwy will not do so, not because God is preventing them, but because they have wicked unbelieving hearts. I have cited John 3:19 so often that you surely don't need me to write it out again. If salvation depended upon sinful men and women no one would ever be saved.
But in His mercy, God the Father has given to the Son a vast crowd of human beings, and the Son has redeemed them at the cost of His own blood and immeasurable suffering.. Not one of that great throng will ever be lost or John 6:39 is false (which it isn't). The Holy Spirit opens their hearts to receive the Gospel and seals them to the day of redemption.

That is the Gospel. I understand that you don't like it and wish it were different, but unfortunately there is nothing I can do about that.

 

Glad to see that you finally admit that man has to believe before God saves them. And I agree that God is very active in reaching out to mankind and drawing them to Himself.
Our gracious God is actively working in and through creation, our conscience, His bride, His Holy Spirit filled followers, and His Word to aid humanity in their conversion. But it is still the person that must respond to the invitation. Would you not agree.

That's why Paul could say:
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes,
And
Rom 10:13 For "WHOEVER CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED."
Because
Rom 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
So we know that
Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Why would you think I do not like the gospel? You must have me confused with someone else.
Your the one that thinks God has to ordain everything but then deny what would be the logical outcome of that view.
So if you are going to accuse me of something at least try to be accurate.

But I did note that you really did not answer the question did you.

Now Martin what is the will of God, that only some can come to Christ or that all have the ability to come to Christ? For whom did Christ die?

Try answering without all the pontificating.

 

If God is not Sovereign over all, then He is not God. He is less than God. There is something, somewhere, in creation that is hiding from God that he is unaware of and God will have to become aware of it and react to it. Dave, you become an Open Theist when you dey the full sovereignty of God. Man is lifted up and God is less than. If you want that God, I cannot stop you from worshipping a less than God.

 

… so God IS the author of evil.

 

1689 Baptist Confession of Faith

“God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears His wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing His decree.”​

(see the story of Joseph, son of Jacob, for an example of this in action)

 

Don't quote Silverhair and then address me. I didn't say God was not sovereign. I have been arguing with Silverhair over this for quite some time. I don't even know where you stand on this. For someone just tuning in, there are more than 2 views on how the sovereignty of God works.
There is a view that some Calvinists take where God is sovereign in a meticulous, causative way in every small detail and I mean directly causative. If your relative dies in a plane crash God killed your relative in their view.

Another view is that God knows everything and is completely sovereign but allows men freedom and free will to the extent His wisdom calls for and to the degree that their actions fit into overall plans that He has for the world. He can veto any free will plan of any man, and/or He can use their actions to fit into His plans. He can use actions done in obedience to Him or actions of error or actions of deliberate disobedience to further His plans also. If God wants to, he can personally cause things to happen according to His will, independent of any of His created beings. Because of this, it is said that God "ordains" everything, meaning that everything that happens is at least happening because He allowed it to and it did not surprise Him - yet He does not directly cause everything that happens to happen. Thus he is not the author of sin.

That's what I believe and most moderate Calvinists believe and it's what the major Calvinistic confessions teach.

Still others believe that God knows everything that is going to happen, yet has chosen to give enough freedom that His will is not always done. He sets up laws and conditions and then allows true freedom for men to comply or not. They deny that God is not sovereign, in that He sets up the laws and conditions but the freedom men have is true freedom.

The last choice is where you get the arguments about open theism or God acting as a master chess-player. I do not follow that view so it is incorrect to accuse me of that. I don't think the last view works logically but there are enough instances in scripture where men are told to choose what course of action they are going to take so I do not ridicule the last view either.

 

There is a view, which is part of some types of Calvinism that says exactly that. There are also plenty of non-Calvinists who falsely accuse all Calvinists of holding that view.