Jesus called "believe", and, therefore, "faith"", a "work".

[Alan Gross]

"Faith" and "believing" are works.

The 1677/86 LBCF, calls "Faith" itself, or the act of "believing", an "evangelical obedience".

A "Person is Righteous; not for any thing wrought in them, or done by them, but for Christ's sake alone,

"not by imputing faith itself,

"the act of believing,

"or any other evangelical obedience to them, as their Righteousness;

"but by imputing Christs active obedience unto the whole Law, and passive obedience in his death, for their whole and sole Righteousness,"

4. FAITH HAS NO MERIT IN ITSELF.

"Faith is merely the channel through which God's justifying and sanctifying grace flows into the soul.

"Faith is no more meritorious than the act of receiving a gift is meritorious.

"Faith in no way is a substitute for our obedience to the law, nor does it bring about a lowering of the law so that we can meet its demands.

..."As a gift of God and as the mere taking of undeserved mercy,"

So, Faith IS NOT A WORK, or Basis, on which a man may claim salvation:

Faith "is expressly excluded from the category of works on the basis of which man may claim salvation (Rom. 3:28; 4:4, 5, 16."

Romans 3:28; "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith (the "work" of "faith" that is God Wrought and given into the believer's soul) without the deeds of the law."

4:4; "Now to him that worketh (attempting fleshly "works" as the basis on which man may try to claim salvation) is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt."

5 "But to him that worketh not (attempting fleshly "works" as the basis on which man may try to claim salvation), but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith (his "work" of "faith" that is God Wrought and given into the believer's soul) is counted for righteousness."

16 "Therefore it is of faith, (the "work" of "faith" that is God Wrought and given into the believer's soul) that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,"

Faith (the "work" of "faith" that is God Wrought and given into the believer's soul) "is not the act of the full soul bestowing, but the act of the empty soul receiving".

However, "Faith" is a "work" (not a "work" of the law, but a "work" that God gives).

Jesus called "believe", and, therefore, "faith"", a "work".

Did you know that?

Did you know there is a verse on it?

John 6:29; "Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

 

[37818]

"Faith" and "believing" are works.

Romans 4:4-5, ". . . Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. . . ."

 

[Alan Gross]

Romans 4:4-5, ". . . Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. . . ."

4:4; "Now to him that worketh" (attempting fleshly "works" as the basis on which man may try to claim salvation)

"is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt."

5 "But to him that worketh not (not attempting fleshly "works" as the basis on which man may try to claim salvation),

"but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith (his "work" of "faith" that is God Wrought and given into the believer's soul)

"is counted for righteousness."

 

[Silverhair]

4:4; "Now to him that worketh" (attempting fleshly "works" as the basis on which man may try to claim salvation)

"is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt."

5 "But to him that worketh not (not attempting fleshly "works" as the basis on which man may try to claim salvation),

"but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith (his "work" of "faith" that is God Wrought and given into the believer's soul)

"is counted for righteousness."

You butcher this text so that it fits your philosophy.
Rom 4:4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

The text is clear but for the Calvinist it proves their theology is wrong so they have to twist or add words in an attempt to have it fit. That is called eisegesis [an interpretation of scripture that expresses the interpreter's own bias rather than the meaning of the text.]

Even Calvin disagrees with your forced interpretation
This is a very important sentence, in which he expresses the substance and nature both of faith and of righteousness. He indeed clearly shews that faith brings us righteousness, not because it is a meritorious act, but because it obtains for us the favor of God. Calvin's Complete Commentary Rom 4:5

So we can have a clearer picture of Rom 4:4-5 we should look at Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS ACCOUNTED TO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS."
Alan are you going to say Abraham did works so that God owed him salvation?

If Abraham was justified, because he embraced, by faith, the bountiful mercy of God, it follows, that he had nothing to glory in; for he brought nothing of his own, except a confession of his misery, which is a solicitation for mercy. He, indeed, takes it as granted, that the righteousness of faith is the refuge, and, as it were, the asylum of the sinner, who is destitute of works. Calvin's Complete Commentary Rom 4:3

You then try to use John 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent." to bolster your view but once again Calvin disagrees with you.

They had spoken of works Christ reminds them of one work, that is, faith; by which he means that all that men undertake without faith is vain and useless, but that faith alone is sufficient, because this alone does God require from us, that we believe For there is here an implied contrast between faith and the works and efforts of men; as if he had said, Men toil to no purpose, when they endeavor to please God without faith, because, by running, as it were, out of the course, they do not advance towards the goal. This is a remarkable passage, showing that, though men torment themselves wretchedly throughout their whole life, still they lose their pains, if they have not faith in Christ as the rule of their life.
But we may think it strange that God approves of nothing but faith alone; for the love of our neighbor ought not to be despised, and the other exercises of religion do not lose their place and honor. So then, though faith may hold the highest rank, still other works are not superfluous. The reply is easy; for faith does not exclude either the love of our neighbor or any other good work, because it contains them all within itself. Faith is called the only work of God, because by means of it we possess Christ, and thus become the sons of God, so that he governs us by his Spirit. Calvin's Complete Commentary Joh 6:29

 

[Van]

LOL, the Calvinists constantly claim a work, singular is "works" plural. Since no one is justified by works, faith must be given to the lost in order to avoid a salvation by "works." This utter fiction is posted again and again, and never with any actual biblical support.

1) Scripture does not say Abraham was made righteous by having his faith credited to him as righteousness.

I should repeat #1 about 100 times, because it is the basic and obvious truth no Calvinist can comprehend, let alone refute.

 

[AustinC]

LOL, the Calvinists constantly claim a work, singular is "works" plural. Since no one is justified by works, faith must be given to the lost in order to avoid a salvation by "works." This utter fiction is posted again and again, and never with any actual biblical support.

1) Scripture does not say Abraham was made righteous by having his faith credited to him as righteousness.

I should repeat #1 about 100 times, because it is the basic and obvious truth no Calvinist can comprehend, let alone refute.

Faith is never given to the spiritually dead, while they are dead. Faith is always given to the person whom God has chosen to make alive, while they were dead, and give the gift of faith that caused them to believe.
This isn't a "Calvinist" teaching, it's a God teaching, in the Bible.

 

[Silverhair]

Faith is never given to the spiritually dead, while they are dead. Faith is always given to the person whom God has chosen to make alive, while they were dead, and give the gift of faith that caused them to believe.
This isn't a "Calvinist" teaching, it's a God teaching, in the Bible.

And yet another misunderstanding of scripture on display. Austin you are consistent anyway.

 

[AustinC]

And yet another misunderstanding of scripture on display. Austin you are consistent anyway.

I proved you wrong in the other thread. I have no need to repeat anything to you.

 

[Alan Gross]

When the lost soul is Convicted of their sin and Regenerated through the Gospel, The New Birth first takes place in the soul below the level of conscieness.

Once, the dead soul is made ETERNALLY alive, it now has the God-given Divine Nature, capacity and ability to have God's gift of "faith", when the individual experiences Conversion and "believes".

Faith is never given to the spiritually dead, while they are dead.

Regeneration illustrated.

"The wonderful change that takes place in regeneration is illustrated in many ways.

"Let us examine some of the terminology applied to the New Birth to better illustrate its nature.

1. "Regeneration" or "Born Again" -- Are not these words merely human comparisons to what takes place in the miracle of grace upon the soul of man?

"In physical generation new life is imparted and family likeness produced.

"Are not these truths that which make birth a wonderful picture of the work of God's grace in man?

2. A resurrection -- Ephesians 2: 1, 5.
3. A renewal -- Colossians 3: 10.
4. A translation -- Colossians 1:13.
5. A new heart -- Ezekiel 36:26.
6. The writing of the Law in One's Heart -- Hebrews 8:10.
7. A new creature -- II Corinthians 5: 17.
8. The giving of light -- II Corinthians 4:6.
9. A good tree -- Matthew 7: 17.
10. A creation -- Ephesians 2:10."

Faith is always given to the person whom God has chosen to make alive, while they were dead, and give the gift of faith that caused them to believe.

C. "Regeneration experienced.

"Regeneration is not experimental (something which may be experienced), but takes place on a level below the human consciousness.

"This is not to say that the new birth in never accompanied by strong emotions, but rather that the work of regeneration itself is not something felt, but is recognized by its fruit in one's life.

"Conversion is a result of the new birth and this we do experience.

"Regeneration is an act of God, but conversion is an act of man produced by the new birth.

III. THE AGENT IN REGENERATION.

A. "Regeneration is not produced by baptism, the human will (John 1:13), or any work of man, but is a direct work of God upon the soul.

"Like the wind (powerful, uncontrollable and invisible) this work is in no way brought about, controlled or understood by man (John 3:8).

"This work which is attributed to the Holy Spirit and is an instantaneous and complete act of God upon the soul.

"While God uses means is the salvation of the elect, yet it must be understood that regeneration itself is not a co-operative effort.

"The Bible presents the new birth as an imperative and not as a command (John 3:3).

B. "This brings us to the important question of the place of the gospel in regeneration.

"God's Word is often mentioned in connection with the new birth (I Corinthians 4:15, James 1:18, I Peter 1:23, Psalms 119:93).

"Just what part does the gospel play in this work?...

C. "We should first understand that while regeneration is a direct work of God upon man's soul, yet by its nature it is wrought in conjunction with the gospel.

"Regeneration produces faith, and faith is impossible without the gospel (Romans 10: 17).

"How can one believe upon a Saviour of whom he has never heard (Romans 10:14)?

"Regeneration also gives us a heart to know and love God (Jeremiah 24:7).

"This also implies a knowledge from the Scriptures of whom God is.

"If (a deceived, false) "regeneration" does not take place in conjunction with the Word of God then it can produce neither faith, love, holiness nor spiritual understanding."

 

[Silverhair]

I proved you wrong in the other thread. I have no need to repeat anything to you.

Austin all you did is prove that you do not trust scripture. It was not even a good try on your part.

 

[Alan Gross]

John 6:29; "Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

Faith is never given to the spiritually dead, while they are dead.

The spiritually dead must be Born again, for them to receive "the work of God that they believe."


Chapter 11 - The Work of the Holy Spirit in Regeneration

INTRODUCTION

"The words "born again" have today come into common use in religious circles.

"Knowing that Satan is a master of the redefining of Bible terms it therefore behooves us to continually assert the Scriptural meaning of these words.

I. THE NECESSITY OF THE NEW BIRTH.

A. "In John 3:3 and 5, our Lord makes it clear that regeneration is necessary to salvation.

"Man not only needs forgiveness before he can fellowship with God, but his whole nature must be renewed.

"Fallen man is natural (I Corinthians 2:14), sensual (Jude 19),

and carnal (Romans 8:5-7),

as opposed to spiritual (I Corinthians 2:15).

"Christ reveals that there is an unchangeable distinction between that which is born of flesh and that which is born of the Spirit.

"The flesh may be religious, refined, educated and outwardly moral, but it is still flesh (John 3:6).

B. "Every part of the natural man is defiled by sin. His mind is darkened to the things of God (I Corinthians 1:18, 2:14, Ephesians 4:18).

"His heart is in a state of enmity toward God (Romans 8:7, Jeremiah 17:9).

"His will is only free to carry out the desires of his depraved nature (John 1:13, Romans 9:16, Philippians 2:13).

"The flesh has become totally unprofitable in the things of God (John 6:63).

II. "THE NATURE OF THE NEW BIRTH.

A. Regeneration defined.

"The change required in man's soul to enable him to enter God's kingdom is called "regeneration" (Titus 3:5),

being "born again" (John 3:3), or

being "born of the Spirit" (John 3:6).

Regeneration is an instantaneous work of God's Spirit whereby a holy disposition is given to the soul.

"The affections are renewed in love to God, and the mind is enlightened and made capable of understanding in the spiritual realm.

"Just as the change that takes place in the millennial earth is called regeneration (Matthew 19:28), so the new birth is a renewal of man's soul."

 

[Alan Gross]

When the lost soul is Convicted of their sin and Regenerated through the Gospel, The New Birth first takes place in the soul below the level of consciousness.

Conviction. A work of the Holy Spirit on the spiritually dead soul prior to Regeneration.

The Religiously Lost soul that has been DECEIVED with another Gospel (Decisionism, sinner's prayer, etc.) has made a false profession of "faith", without real Conviction or Regeneration.

The key is whether God has Blessed them to "see" their personal sins, of nature, habit, and actions, as being responsible for Jesus being nailed to the cross and dying.

That is when the realization of Total Depravity takes place and a genuine need for the Savior's blood to be applied to THEIR soul.

"While "awakening" deals primarily with danger, yet "conviction" is the work of God whereby the cause of our danger is revealed.

"In conviction a man is convinced and reproved concerning his sinful condition. This alone can give the sinner a desire to know Christ.

"A form of words, though e'er so sound, Can never save a soul; The Holy Ghost must give the wound, And make the wounded whole."

A. "The areas of conviction - In John 16:8-11, we find three areas wherein men are convicted.

1. "Of sin - God convicts men of great sins they have committed (Acts 2:36-37), of original sin, of failure in duties and of the sin of unbelief.

2. "Of righteousness - Men are convicted of the righteousness of Christ, and of their need of His righteousness (Matthew 5:6).

3. "Of judgment to come - Judgment often has reference to rule. Men are convinced that just as Satan will be vanquished, so Christ is the coming king, and that resistance is folly.

"The powers of evil have no chance for victory, but all will ultimately stand before God.

B. "The need of conviction.

1. "Without conviction men would not be ready to admit their total defilement, nor to come to Christ as helpless beggars.

"Christ is all" (Colossians 3:11) in salvation, and God would have the redeemed to understand this. Conviction therefore prepares the soul for faith in Christ.

2. "Conviction is preparatory to repentance.

"Godly sorrow (II Corinthians 7:10) precedes repentance which is a permanent change of heart and mind about sin.

C. "The means of conviction.

"While conviction is a work of God's Spirit, yet He is pleased to use certain truths in this work.

"Just as He often uses the truth of God’s wrath to awaken sinners so in conviction He uses:

1. "The law (Romans 3:19-20; 7:7-13). Men commonly judge themselves by their neighbors' actions, but in conviction they see that it is God’s glory they fall short of (Romans 3:23).

2. "The goodness of God (Romans 2:4). Many have testified that it was a view of God's goodness that convinced them of their sin.

D. "The earmarks of true conviction.

1. "Real conviction causes a man to accept his guilt (Psalms 51:4, Luke 18:9-14).

2. "Real conviction destroys self-righteousness (Luke 18:9-14, Isaiah 64:6).

3. "Real conviction sees sin as being against God (Psalms 51:4, Luke 15:18.

4. "Real conviction leads one to Christ, rather than to worldly despair (II Corinthians 7: 10)."

This is the realm in which we should be able to observe the evidence of Conviction, prior to Regeneration.

 

[Van]

Faith is never given to the spiritually dead, while they are dead. Faith is always given to the person whom God has chosen to make alive, while they were dead, and give the gift of faith that caused them to believe.
This isn't a "Calvinist" teaching, it's a God teaching, in the Bible.

Faith is not given, but God does draw (attract) spiritually dead individuals, which provides their basis for their trust in and devotion to God and His Christ.

2 Thessalonians says God chooses individuals for salvation (which including making them alive together with Christ) through or by utilizing faith in the truth. Thus faith is not given but our faith may be credited or not to us as righteousness. Romans 4:23-25

Calvinism is not God teaching but is man-made doctrine.

 

[AustinC]

Faith is not given, but God does draw (attract) spiritually dead individuals, which provides their basis for their trust in and devotion to God and His Christ.

2 Thessalonians says God chooses individuals for salvation (which including making them alive together with Christ) through or by utilizing faith in the truth. Thus faith is not given but our faith may be credited or not to us as righteousness. Romans 4:23-25

Calvinism is not God teaching but is man-made doctrine.

So, in your theology, faith is not a gift?
Is faith also not authored by Jesus?

To the Bold: No, Paul does not tell the Thessalonians what you claim. That is your Vanology, attempting to assert what God does not assert.

I couldn't care less about Calvinism. I do care about what God teaches, and it is clear that God does not teach Vanology.

 

[Alan Gross]

So, in your theology, faith is not a gift?
Is faith also not authored by Jesus?

"The Author and Finisher of our faith"? Hebrews 12:2a.


"But the fruit of the Spirit is ... faith", Galatians 5:22.

 

[Van]

So, in your theology, faith is not a gift?
Is faith also not authored by Jesus?

To the Bold: No, Paul does not tell the Thessalonians what you claim. That is your Vanology, attempting to assert what God does not assert.

I couldn't care less about Calvinism. I do care about what God teaches, and it is clear that God does not teach Vanology.

Once again the false teachers try to claim God's word says Jesus is not the author and perfecter of the faith. Utter nonsense.
Next, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 is claimed not to say God chooses individuals through faith in the truth for salvation. Just read it folks, just read.

Then read Romans 4:23-25, and ask if God bestows blessings such as justification based on crediting a person's faith as righteousness. The "gift of faith" supposedly instilled by "irresistible grace" is a fiction, but God crediting a person's faith as righteousness is a fact.

 

[AustinC]

Once again the false teachers try to claim God's word says Jesus is not the author and perfecter of the faith.

Where do I make that claim, Van?
Faith does not exist without Jesus authoring it and finishing it.

Utter nonsense.

Indeed, your claim about me is utter nonsense.

[/QUOTE]Next, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 is claimed not to say God chooses individuals through faith in the truth for salvation. Just read it folks, just read.[/QUOTE]
Let's look:
*2 Thessalonians 2:11-14*
Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the first fruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul is talking about the coming of the Lord and the saints who will be gathered to Christ. To those who are not chosen, God sends a delusion because the did not believe (see Romans 1).

Next we see that the first thing God did was choose the saints to be first fruits (understand how the Levites became the first born of Israel by God's choosing).
Next we see the Holy Spirit setting them apart (sanctifying them) and causing them to believe the truth.

It was to this that the Holy Spirit called those whom God has chosen.
Note that the sanctification and belief are not by human effort.

Then read Romans 4:23-25, and ask if God bestows blessings such as justification based on crediting a person's faith as righteousness.

Let's read:
*Romans 4:13-25*
For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression. That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist. In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations, as he had been told, “So shall your offspring be.” He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah’s womb. No unbelief made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.” But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone, but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.

We notice in this passage that our justification came because of the promise of God. He fulfills that promise through faith and it is through that faith that God counts us righteous.
Now, recall that Jesus is the author and finisher of this faith, so God gets all glory and praise for having given us faith as His gracious gift.

The "gift of faith" supposedly instilled by "irresistible grace" is a fiction, but God crediting a person's faith as righteousness is a fact.

Here Van is apparently calling Ephesians 2:4-9 fiction.
*Ephesians 2:4-9*
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Jesus is the author and finisher of faith (Hebrews 12:2) and He is the gracious giver of faith upon God making us alive with Christ.

This is fact, but apparently Van imagines it is fiction.

 

[Van]

Is faith also not authored by Jesus?

Once again the false teachers try to claim God's word says Jesus is not the author and perfecter of the faith. Utter nonsense.

First they question whether Jesus is the author of faith, then they claim they did not question that Jesus is the author of faith.

Does 2 Thessalonians say God chose for salvation through faith in the truth, a conditional election? Yes. Do the false teachers deny this truth? Yes

Does choosing through faith in the truth mean causing them to believe? Of course not. But that is the utter nonsense the false teachers push.

Did anyone say God choosing individuals through sanctification and faith in the truth meant human effort? Nope but that is another strawman hoisted by the disinformation pusher.

Does Romans 4:23-25 say God gives individuals faith or God credits the faith of individuals? God credits the faith of individuals as righteousness. Those that believe. Not those given faith by irresistible grace.

Did Van call Ephesians 2:4-9 a fiction? Nope so yet another strawman argument.

What did Van say? "The "gift of faith" supposedly instilled by "irresistible grace" is a fiction, but God crediting a person's faith as righteousness is a fact."

Romans 4:23-25
Now not for his sake only was it written that it [faith] was credited to him, but for our sake also, to whom it [our faith] will be credited, to us who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, He who was delivered over because of our wrongdoings, and was raised because of our justification.

Note that those who believe in Him are the ones whose faith is credited.

 

[Van]

LOL, the Calvinists constantly claim a work, singular is "works" plural. Since no one is justified by works, faith must be given to the lost in order to avoid a salvation by "works." This utter fiction is posted again and again, and never with any actual biblical support.

1) Scripture does not say Abraham was made righteous by having his faith credited to him as righteousness.

2) Scripture says Abraham's faith was credited as righteousness to Abraham!

I should repeat #1& 2 about 100 times, because it is the basic and obvious truth no Calvinist can comprehend, let alone refute.

Bottom line we are chosen through faith, but our uncredited faith did not merit election, thus faith is not works meriting God's grace. See Romans 4:16

 

[AustinC]

LOL, the Calvinists constantly claim a work, singular is "works" plural. Since no one is justified by works, faith must be given to the lost in order to avoid a salvation by "works." This utter fiction is posted again and again, and never with any actual biblical support.

1) Scripture does not say Abraham was made righteous by having his faith credited to him as righteousness.

2) Scripture says Abraham's faith was credited as righteousness to Abraham!

I should repeat #1& 2 about 100 times, because it is the basic and obvious truth no Calvinist can comprehend, let alone refute.

Bottom line we are chosen through faith, but our uncredited faith did not merit election, thus faith is not works meriting God's grace. See Romans 4:16

No, we are not chosen through faith.
We were chosen by grace, before the world began. We didn't physically exist then, yet God chose us. Therefore, faith has nothing to do with us being chosen.