Featured Are we in the tribulation?

You're right we are just experiencing the birth pains so far.. I think we all can see that it's coming.
MB

 

Christian’s are getting their heads cut off, beaten, hands and feet cut off

 

Martyrdom started with Stephen in the book of acts. It has been ongoing since then.

 

*Revelation 1:1-3*
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.

These seals have already been open.

*Revelation 6:1-11*
Now I watched when the Lamb opened one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures say with a voice like thunder, “Come!” And I looked, and behold, a white horse! And its rider had a bow, and a crown was given to him, and he came out conquering, and to conquer. When he opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, “Come!” And out came another horse, bright red. Its rider was permitted to take peace from the earth, so that people should slay one another, and he was given a great sword. When he opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, “Come!” And I looked, and behold, a black horse! And its rider had a pair of scales in his hand. And I heard what seemed to be a voice in the midst of the four living creatures, saying, “A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius, and do not harm the oil and wine!” When he opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, “Come!” And I looked, and behold, a pale horse! And its rider’s name was Death, and Hades followed him. And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth. When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

The 12th chapter "reveals" what God has been doing and what the spiritual battle Paul talks about in Ephesians 6 is all about.

The tribulation started when Jesus ascended to heaven

*Revelation 12:1-17*
And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pains and the agony of giving birth. And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems. His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it. She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days. Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God. And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death. Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!” And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time. The serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, to sweep her away with a flood. But the earth came to the help of the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed the river that the dragon had poured from his mouth. Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.

What we NEVER find in Revelation is a rapture of the church. It just doesn't exist.

When you look at what has happened to Christians and how the beast (starting with Rome and now with China and Iran) has martyred believers, you cannot deny the tribulation. Our problem, in the US, is that we are the wilderness where the Church has been protected, but that protection is coming to an end very soon and then we will experience what our brothers and sisters have been experiencing. We will then see God move with his seven bowls of wrath because his children have been martyred.

So, there is no doubt that we are in the Tribulation and it will get worse before the winepress of God's wrath is performed.

At this moment, Jesus is separating the wheat from the chaff. (Revelation 14).

I am not a dispensational Zionist (and neither is God). I interpret Revelation as an idealist and see the entire letter as symbolic and connected to the Old Testament symbols to which John points.

Since this letter is a blessing to every generation, it is therefore 100% applicable to us today. The futurist view gets it utterly wrong.

 

I stayed on subject and showed you why the rapture doesn't exist as something before the tribulation.
John is consistently symbolic with his use of numbers. The 1420 days, the 1000 years, the 144,000 believers, etc, are all symbolic numbers, not literal. This is apocalyptic language connecting to the symbolism of the ancient prophets so that the entire letter is practical for us today.

 

Tell that to those who have lost their heads.
These are the martyrs of the tribulation period. We have been in the wilderness for a time, but we will also see our haven consumed by the beast of secular humanism.
*Revelation 12:13-14*
And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time.

The woman is the church that was given wings to be nourished. We are living in this wilderness.

Now, will it get worse for us? Sure, but don't downplay how awful it has already been for a large contingent of the church.

 

Those beheaded are not martyred in Revelation 13.

They are not the church. Satan's 42 months of abomination of desolation is not even the time of Jacob's trouble.

The tribulation that started at Pentecost is not Jacob's trouble, known as Thee Great Tribulation. Yes the church has had a literal 1993 year great tribulation.

Jacob's trouble is after the King arrives to claim the throne of David, Zechariah 14, Matthew 25:31, and Matthew 13.

Satan will not be tempting Jesus in private like in the first century. Satan will be out in the open sowing the tares while Jesus as King is sowing the wheat. The GT of Jacob's trouble is after the Second Coming. Jeremiah 30:3-18

"Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it. For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him: But they shall serve the Lord their God, and David their king (Jesus the Christ the King; Daniel 9), whom I will raise up unto them. Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the Lord; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid. For I am with thee, saith the Lord, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet I will not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished. For thus saith the Lord, Thy bruise is incurable, and thy wound is grievous. There is none to plead thy cause, that thou mayest be bound up: thou hast no healing medicines. All thy lovers have forgotten thee; they seek thee not; for I have wounded thee with the wound of an enemy, with the chastisement of a cruel one, for the multitude of thine iniquity; because thy sins were increased. Why criest thou for thine affliction? thy sorrow is incurable for the multitude of thine iniquity: because thy sins were increased, I have done these things unto thee. Therefore all they that devour thee shall be devoured; and all thine adversaries, every one of them, shall go into captivity; and they that spoil thee shall be a spoil, and all that prey upon thee will I give for a prey. For I will restore health unto thee, and I will heal thee of thy wounds, saith the Lord; because they called thee an Outcast, saying, This is Zion, whom no man seeketh after. Thus saith the Lord; Behold, I will bring again the captivity of Jacob's tents, and have mercy on his dwellingplaces; and the city shall be builded upon her own heap, and the palace shall remain after the manner thereof."

This restoration is not about the first century work of Messiah. Neither is Zechariah 14.

Because Jesus did not complete this in the first century:

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:"

This is when Jacob, not just Judah is brought back from all the nations. This is the GT when all the nations are judged. The full realization of all the Gentiles had not even gotten started in the first century. Jacob was still being scattered across the earth, subject to the whims of the Gentiles.


"I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew..... For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."

Paul was not denying the Gospel of Christ. The King deliverer part was still future.

Many claim that the church was the answer to Daniel 9:24. But the blindness was given to Jacob, both Israel and Judah, while the church would flourish among the Gentiles. When the fulness of the Gentiles comes in, full stop, is the Second Coming, the 6th Seal.

The Trumpets gather the nation of Israel out of all the other nations.

Yes we see the attempt of man at starting Israel as a Nation.

"Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

"And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled."

When the Lord is at work, you will know the difference between Great Tribulation and the church's great tribulation. Being beheaded now is martyrdom. Being beheaded after the Second Coming is a matter of choosing God or choosing Satan. That is the alter call, not the result of the alter call.

The Trumpets show you the GT experience. The pit has not been opened (5th Trumpet). The Second Coming is prior to that. Fire has not come and burned up all the works of man. That is the 6th Seal at the Second Coming. The GT is worse than the stone age. In the stone age people knew how to survive. After the Second Coming, you have humans who are used to modern convenience, forced into the stone age.

"And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:"

In this stone age they are asking the rocks and mountains to kill them, literally fall on them to avoid the GT brought on by The Lord's punishment upon all nations. You think it won't be a drastic difference?

"And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."

"But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

Jacob's trouble is just starting at the 6th Seal and ends by the time the 7 Thunders start. Then it will be the harvest of the wheat and tares.

"And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire: And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth, And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.
And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write:"

"Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

It seems there will be a clear difference between the trouble now, and what will come, even if one is not aware that the Second Coming already happened and they cannot figure out why things have drastically changed.

 

The Church is the Israel of God, the receiver of the promises of God. Daniel is ultimately speaking to us, the Church, the Israel of God. Daniel, like John, is using symbolic language.

 

We don’t downplay it. But it’s not the Great Tribulation yet.

 

And your church as Israel is 100% symbolic. It is not literal at all. Tribulation is literal, so your symbolism does not pertain to Jacob's literal Tribulation.

 

Apparently you don't have Romans 2, Romans 9, Romans 11, and Galatians 3 in your Bible.
Perhaps you do not understand the Covenants.

 

I heard Peter Masters (Spurgeon's successor at the Met Tab) speculate afew years ago that we might be entering "Satan's little Season." Things have got a lot worse for Christians worldwide in recent times, but that doesn't mean it can't get a whole lot worse.

It's being so cheerful that keeps me going!

 

Yes, with the great atrocities of the 20th Century, it is hard, on one hand, to imagine that Satan has been bound. Yet, the binding was not to stop sin from existing, but to give the church the grace to go spread the gospel to every nation, tribe, and tongue. When the season of missionary work is complete, we will see Satan unleashed to try destroy the church (the woman, the bride of Christ), but it is then that Jesus will come as a thief in the night and plunder Satan and cast him forever into the Lake of Fire along with the beast, the false prophet, and all who have the mark of the beast.

 

If Satan is bound and the resurrected witnesses reigned with Christ for a thousand years? Are you saying that what we see on earth is Christ Jesus reigning?

Rev 20:1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
Rev 20:3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

It would seem to me that what we are seeing is the prince of the power of the air {Satan} reigning here. It's either that or Christ is a rather ineffective ruler.

 

As I said before, sin still is in effect.
The binding that God has done is to keep Satan from wiping out the church. We see, in Job, that God puts restraints on Satan and what he can do to Job. We have seen a period of worldwide evangelism and church growth that has been reaching to every nation, tribe, and tongue. God has restrained Satan, for a season. But, that restraint will be removed and the world will be moved to destroy the church. Then Christ Jesus will come like a thief in the night to save His bride.
The layering and the parallelism of the seals, trumpets, and bowls is a fascinating look at the tapestry of human history via apocalyptic imagery. The revealing of the unholy trinity of the dragon, beast of the sea, and beast of the earth shows the perversion of Satan as a less-than ruler. The comparison and contrast between the beast of the sea with his prostitute, whom he beats and mistreats and Jesus with his spotless Bride whom he loves and adores is great poetic imagery. We are warned not to be fascinated with this beautiful harlot, just as the Proverbs warn us about the harlot. Her enticements lead to death. Martin Luther wrote a famous hymn about this battle when he penned "A Mighty Fortress."

So, the 1000 year binding up of Satan has been going on, but it will soon end and we will be persecuted or required to worship the beast, just as the early church was persecuted and required to worship Caesar or the gods of the trade guilds if they wanted to have a job and buy food.
We are marked, by God, even now. His hand of care is upon us.

 

You seem to be quite involved with the last book of the bible. I have read it and actually took over two years to study through it but that was a number of years ago. At the time it was interesting but I also realized that it was not to be applied to Christians as we will not be here at that time. Well that would depend upon whether one is pre, mid or post. Enjoy your study but realize that this is a book that has been studied in depth by many many people and many views have come out of it that they feel can be supported by clear scripture. It is prophecy and as such we will not really know what it all means until after the fact.

 

It's too bad you find such an encouraging and practical letter, in the Bible, to be irrelevant for yourself. That's sad, and it just shows your lack of biblical understanding that flows over into the rest of your theology.
The letter is...a Revelation of Jesus...to the Church. Like all prophetic writings, it is relevant to every generation and speaks to both past, present, and future. It is sad that you don't understand this truth in the Revelation.