Justification by Faith

[Martin Marprelate]

That’s what we were, before the new birth, received by grace, through faith.

Dead is “separated”, not “insensate”.

Dead is dead, and spiritually dead is spiritually dead. It is not being a bit poorly, rather unwell, seriously ill, unconscious or in a coma. It's dead - kicked the bucket, turned up your toes, pushing up the daisies..
That is why the Lord Jesus bids us be born anew. There are other words He might have used to express Himself. "You must make a new start," "You must begin again," " You must turn over a new leaf" or whatever; but these are all things we can do for ourselves. The one thing we cannot do for ourselves is to be born. The time simply comes and we put in an appearance with a little squawk.

If we have “an ear to hear”, then we will hear.

If the Lord opens our ears, then we shall hear.
Deuteronomy 29:4. 'Yet the LORD has not given you a heart to perceive and eyes to see and ears to hear, to this very day.'
It is when the Lord cries, "Lazarus, come forth!" And not before, that Lazarus will come out of the tomb.[/QUOTE]

 

[MrW]

The body without the spirit is dead. Even so, faith without works is dead.

Dead is separated. Not insensate, not out-of-existence.

Isaiah 59--
1 Behold, the Lord’s hand is not shortened, that it cannot save;
neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
2 but your iniquities have separated between you and your God,
and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Is the second death in the lake of fire, "dead is dead"? So they won't know they're there?

 

[MrW]

We weren’t “dead is dead” before we existed. We didn’t exist.

We must be born again because our first birth was in Adam. We didn’t exist in Christ.

We must be born a second time, be born from above, in Christ, for only those in Christ will inherit the Kingdom of God.

 

[Van]

Are we chosen individually for salvation through faith in the truth? What does 2 Thessalonians 2:13 say? It says we are chosen through faith in the truth. We were "dead in our sins" when chosen? Yes.

Therefore, drum roll please, being "dead in sins" does not equate with total spiritual inability.

 

[Silverhair]

Dead is dead, and spiritually dead is spiritually dead. It is not being a bit poorly, rather unwell, seriously ill, unconscious or in a coma. It's dead - kicked the bucket, turned up your toes, pushing up the daisies..
That is why the Lord Jesus bids us be born anew. There are other words He might have used to express Himself. "You must make a new start," "You must begin again," " You must turn over a new leaf" or whatever; but these are all things we can do for ourselves. The one thing we cannot do for ourselves is to be born. The time simply comes and we put in an appearance with a little squawk.
If the Lord opens our ears, then we shall hear.
Deuteronomy 29:4. 'Yet the LORD has not given you a heart to perceive and eyes to see and ears to hear, to this very day.'
It is when the Lord cries, "Lazarus, come forth!" And not before, that Lazarus will come out of the tomb.

[/QUOTE]

So your saying that those that are spiritually dead can not know God as God has to make them alive first so they can then be given faith to believe. Am I reading you correctly here?

If what you are saying then perhaps you can explain Matthew 16:13-16.
How is it possible that Peter was able to make his great confession in Matthew 16:16? We see in Matthew 16:17 that it was the Father in heaven who revealed it to him. But the Apostles were not regenerate men since according to John 14:17 the Spirit was not indwelling them yet. Doesn’t that mean they were still spiritually dead from the Calvinist perspective as the Holy Spirit was not to be sent until after Christ departed. John 16:7

And what do you do with John 5:24
"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears G191 (G5723) My word and believes G4100 (G5723) in Him who sent Me has G2192 (G5719) everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. (John 5:24, NKJV)
Here Jesus plainly describes the initial movement from spiritual death to spiritual life. The one who hears the words of Jesus in faith (i.e. receives them through faith) passes from spiritual death to spiritual life. This clearly marks the transition from death to life and that is a perfect description of what constitutes regeneration. Regeneration is the beginning of spiritual life, and is thereby marked by the initial transition from death to life.
In the oft repeated Calvinist analogy of the preacher in the Morgue, Calvinists insist that one cannot hear or respond to Christ or the gospel until that person is first given spiritual life. This claim is in obvious and stark contrast to what Jesus says in John 5 "he who hears My word, and believes". Jesus tells us that the spiritually “dead” will “hear” unto “life”, and this hearing unto life is the result of faith (John 5:24).

The difference is clear.
Jesus tells us that the “dead” will “hear” (in faith) unto “life” and the Calvinist tells us that only those who are already regenerated can “hear” unto faith. Jesus says that hearing and faith come before life and Calvinism says that life comes before hearing and faith. Calvinists say that the “dead” cannot possibly hear anything, just like a lifeless physical corpse. Jesus tells us that the “dead” can hear (Romans 10:17; Galatians 3:2), and this hearing by faith is what moves those who hear from the realm of spiritual death to the realm of spiritual life.

 

[AustinC]

Are we chosen individually for salvation through faith in the truth? What does 2 Thessalonians 2:13 say? It says we are chosen through faith in the truth. We were "dead in our sins" when chosen? Yes.

Therefore, drum roll please, being "dead in sins" does not equate with total spiritual inability.

No.
*2 Thessalonians 2:11-15*
Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the first fruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.

The choosing was before the foundation of the world. Ephesians 1, Romans 8, Hebrews 9, Revelation 7.

Just as we were saved by grace and gifted faith so that through faith we would believe, so God chose us before the foundation of the world and through the gift of faith God is doing the work of setting us apart (sanctification) by the Spirit.
These things we do are entirely caused by God, precisely because He chose us before the foundation of the world.

2Thessalonisns 2:13 is a confirmation of this truth.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

How is it possible that Peter was able to make his great confession in Matthew 16:16? We see in Matthew 16:17 that it was the Father in heaven who revealed it to him. But the Apostles were not regenerate men since according to John 14:17 the Spirit was not indwelling them yet.

Try not to be silly. "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven." "Most assuredly I say to you, unless one is born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of heaven." Why not? Because he's dead, that's why not.

 

[Van]

No. SNIP
, because God chose you as the first fruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.
SNIP
The choosing was before the foundation of the world. Ephesians 1, Romans 8, Hebrews 9, Revelation 7. SNIP
.

Once false statement after another. Note that the above in "red" is an agenda driven mis-translation of 2 Thessalonians 2:13. "To be saved" should read "for salvation" (a noun not a verb).

Does Romans 8 say individuals were chosen before the foundation of the world? Nope Now God did formulate His Redemption plan before creation, including choosing Logos to be His Redeemer, which of course corporately chosen anyone subsequently redeemed, but since we were once not a people chosen for His possession, that election was corporate. Otherwise we would have always been a people. See 1 Peter 2:9-10.

Does Hebrews 9 say individuals were chosen for salvation before the foundation of the world? Nope. But Hebrews 9:26 does say sins have been occurring and therefore human High Priests would have needed to sacrifice since creation of humanity. But Christ's once for all sacrifice provides the means of salvation for all time.

Does Revelation 7 say individuals wee chosen before the foundation of the world? Nope.

So his whole post is a nothing burger, proclaiming that is is obviously false.

 

[AustinC]

Once false statement after another. Note that the above in "red" is an agenda driven mis-translation of 2 Thessalonians 2:13. "To be saved" should read "for salvation" (a noun not a verb).

Does Romans 8 say individuals were chosen before the foundation of the world? Nope Now God did formulate His Redemption plan before creation, including choosing Logos to be His Redeemer, which of course corporately chosen anyone subsequently redeemed, but since we were once not a people chosen for His possession, that election was corporate. Otherwise we would have always been a people. See 1 Peter 2:9-10.

Does Hebrews 9 say individuals were chosen for salvation before the foundation of the world? Nope. But Hebrews 9:26 does say sins have been occurring and therefore human High Priests would have needed to sacrifice since creation of humanity. But Christ's once for all sacrifice provides the means of salvation for all time.

Does Revelation 7 say individuals wee chosen before the foundation of the world? Nope.

So his whole post is a nothing burger, proclaiming that is is obviously false.

First, be honest, it is you who has the agenda and you reject any translation that does not fit your agenda. You need to be honest with yourself and us.

Second, scripture interprets scripture, yet, here you are attempting to dismiss the other places in scripture that help us understand 2Thessalonians 2:13. You show us that you don't follow this important principle.

Third, with the swipe of your agenda you declare what I provided as a "nothing burger" which ultimately tells us much more about you than anyone else?

 

[Van]

First, be honest, it is you who has the agenda and you reject any translation that does not fit your agenda. You need to be honest with yourself and us.

Second, scripture interprets scripture, yet, here you are attempting to dismiss the other places in scripture that help us understand 2Thessalonians 2:13. You show us that you don't follow this important principle.

Third, with the swipe of your agenda you declare what I provided as a "nothing burger" which ultimately tells us much more about you than anyone else?

Once again a post disparaging my behavior and ignoring the topic. All these type of posts violate forum rules.
Why would someone make up something and attribute it to another?

 

[AustinC]

Once again a post disparaging my behavior and ignoring the topic. All these type of posts violate forum rules.
Why would someone make up something and attribute it to another?

I addressed the topic with my second point.

I addressed you because you claimed I provided "a nothing burger."

First, be honest, it is you who has the agenda and you reject any translation that does not fit your agenda. You need to be honest with yourself and us.

Second, scripture interprets scripture, yet, here you are attempting to dismiss the other places in scripture that help us understand 2Thessalonians 2:13. You show us that you don't follow this important principle.

Third, with the swipe of your agenda you declare what I provided as a "nothing burger" which ultimately tells us much more about you than anyone else?

 

[Silverhair]

Try not to be silly. "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven." "Most assuredly I say to you, unless one is born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of heaven." Why not? Because he's dead, that's why not.

Don't be silly Martin, how do you think God revealed the truth to Peter? Peter was with Christ for an extended period of time heard Him teach, say Him heal people, etc. that is how God the Father revealed it to him. Now for the Calvinist it would be impossible for Peter to even think as he, being unregenerate, was just as dead as Lazarus in that regard.

The problem for the Calvinist is that the bible does not support your errant view.

And what do you do with John 5:24
"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears G191 (G5723) My word and believes G4100 (G5723) in Him who sent Me has G2192 (G5719) everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. (John 5:24, NKJV)
Here Jesus plainly describes the initial movement from spiritual death to spiritual life. The one who hears the words of Jesus in faith (i.e. receives them through faith) passes from spiritual death to spiritual life. This clearly marks the transition from death to life and that is a perfect description of what constitutes regeneration. Regeneration is the beginning of spiritual life, and is thereby marked by the initial transition from death to life.
In the oft repeated Calvinist analogy of the preacher in the Morgue, Calvinists insist that one cannot hear or respond to Christ or the gospel until that person is first given spiritual life. This claim is in obvious and stark contrast to what Jesus says in John 5 "he who hears My word, and believes". Jesus tells us that the spiritually “dead” will “hear” unto “life”, and this hearing unto life is the result of faith (John 5:24).

The difference is clear.
Jesus tells us that the “dead” will “hear” (in faith) unto “life” and the Calvinist tells us that only those who are already regenerated can “hear” unto faith. Jesus says that hearing and faith come before life and Calvinism says that life comes before hearing and faith. Calvinists say that the “dead” cannot possibly hear anything, just like a lifeless physical corpse. Jesus tells us that the “dead” can hear (Romans 10:17; Galatians 3:2), and this hearing by faith is what moves those who hear from the realm of spiritual death to the realm of spiritual life.

Calvinist like to say that unregenerate man is dead like Lazarus but if one is dead like Lazarus then one cannot sin either but then that is one point that they want people to overlook. Now if you want to have a better understanding of salvation we should look at the Prodigal Son. Luke 15:11-24
Man is not dead as Calvinists would have us believe. Man can think, man can repent and when man repents God will receive him with open arms.
Calvinist theology that has man, before regeneration, dead like Lazarus makes a mockery of the bible. Did Christ get it wrong in John 3:14-18 and what about Paul under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit in Romans 3:21-30? According to Calvinism they did.

I find it amazing that some people will fight so hard to deny clear scripture so then can support a man-made theology that has a faulty foundation.

 

[AustinC]

Don't be silly Martin, how do you think God revealed the truth to Peter? Peter was with Christ for an extended period of time heard Him teach, say Him heal people, etc. that is how God the Father revealed it to him. Now for the Calvinist it would be impossible for Peter to even think as he, being unregenerate, was just as dead as Lazarus in that regard.

The problem for the Calvinist is that the bible does not support your errant view.

And what do you do with John 5:24
"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears G191 (G5723) My word and believes G4100 (G5723) in Him who sent Me has G2192 (G5719) everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. (John 5:24, NKJV)
Here Jesus plainly describes the initial movement from spiritual death to spiritual life. The one who hears the words of Jesus in faith (i.e. receives them through faith) passes from spiritual death to spiritual life. This clearly marks the transition from death to life and that is a perfect description of what constitutes regeneration. Regeneration is the beginning of spiritual life, and is thereby marked by the initial transition from death to life.
In the oft repeated Calvinist analogy of the preacher in the Morgue, Calvinists insist that one cannot hear or respond to Christ or the gospel until that person is first given spiritual life. This claim is in obvious and stark contrast to what Jesus says in John 5 "he who hears My word, and believes". Jesus tells us that the spiritually “dead” will “hear” unto “life”, and this hearing unto life is the result of faith (John 5:24).

The difference is clear.
Jesus tells us that the “dead” will “hear” (in faith) unto “life” and the Calvinist tells us that only those who are already regenerated can “hear” unto faith. Jesus says that hearing and faith come before life and Calvinism says that life comes before hearing and faith. Calvinists say that the “dead” cannot possibly hear anything, just like a lifeless physical corpse. Jesus tells us that the “dead” can hear (Romans 10:17; Galatians 3:2), and this hearing by faith is what moves those who hear from the realm of spiritual death to the realm of spiritual life.

Calvinist like to say that unregenerate man is dead like Lazarus but if one is dead like Lazarus then one cannot sin either but then that is one point that they want people to overlook. Now if you want to have a better understanding of salvation we should look at the Prodigal Son. Luke 15:11-24
Man is not dead as Calvinists would have us believe. Man can think, man can repent and when man repents God will receive him with open arms.
Calvinist theology that has man, before regeneration, dead like Lazarus makes a mockery of the bible. Did Christ get it wrong in John 3:14-18 and what about Paul under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit in Romans 3:21-30? According to Calvinism they did.

I find it amazing that some people will fight so hard to deny clear scripture so then can support a man-made theology that has a faulty foundation.

What do you do with John 10:25-29?

Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me,is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

Did Jesus chose Peter before Peter believed or did Peter believe, which caused Jesus to chose Peter?

 

[MrW]

Try not to be silly. "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven." "Most assuredly I say to you, unless one is born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of heaven." Why not? Because he's dead, that's why not.

If I go to Europe I will see Europe. If I don’t go, I cannot see Europe.

If we don’t repent, receive Christ, we won’t see the Kingdom, because we won’t go there.

 

[MrW]

What do you do with John 10:25-29?

Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me,is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

Did Jesus chose Peter before Peter believed or did Peter believe, which caused Jesus to chose Peter?

He chose Peter. Peter later believed.

He chose Judas. Judas later rejected.

After being chosen, a “choosing back” is required. John 1:10-13.

 

[Silverhair]

What do you do with John 10:25-29?

Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me,is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

Did Jesus chose Peter before Peter believed or did Peter believe, which caused Jesus to chose Peter?

What does John 10:25-29 have to do with Jesus calling Peter to follow Him? You are grasping at straws again. Jesus was speaking to Jews that did not believe so again I ask what is the point you are trying to make? Are you going to say that because Peter was walking with Christ then at that point {John 10:25-29} he was saved?

 

[AustinC]

What does John 10:25-29 have to do with Jesus calling Peter to follow Him? You are grasping at straws again. Jesus was speaking to Jews that did not believe so again I ask what is the point you are trying to make? Are you going to say that because Peter was walking with Christ then at that point {John 10:25-29} he was saved?

Why didn't they believe and why did Peter believe. Jesus tells you in John 10:25-29.
Why is this so hard for you to accept?

 

[Silverhair]

Why didn't they believe and why did Peter believe. Jesus tells you in John 10:25-29.
Why is this so hard for you to accept?

Christ was not speaking to Peter at that time so my question for you is why do you not believe what the Holy Spirit tells you via the inspired writer Paul in Romans 3:21-30? Pulling verses out of their context is just bad theology Austin.

Rom 3:21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
Rom 3:25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
Rom 3:26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He {God the Father} would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.
Rom 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
Rom 3:29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,
Rom 3:30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised {Jews} by faith and the uncircumcised {Gentiles} through faith is one.

Since you do not want to believe what I say perhaps you will believe what the Holy Spirit says.

 

[AustinC]

Christ was not speaking to Peter at that time so my question for you is why do you not believe what the Holy Spirit tells you via the inspired writer Paul in Romans 3:21-30? Pulling verses out of their context is just bad theology Austin.

Rom 3:21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
Rom 3:25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
Rom 3:26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He {God the Father} would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.
Rom 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
Rom 3:29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,
Rom 3:30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised {Jews} by faith and the uncircumcised {Gentiles} through faith is one.

Since you do not want to believe what I say perhaps you will believe what the Holy Spirit says.

What am I not believing about this wonderful passage in Romans 3?
What you didn't do was actually address the issue.

 

[DaveXR650]

If I go to Europe I will see Europe. If I don’t go, I cannot see Europe.

If we don’t repent, receive Christ, we won’t see the Kingdom, because we won’t go there.

I agree. But my question is whether you think that the ability and/or desire to repent and receive Christ or to believe must come totally from within yourself? If so, then you and @Silverhair must answer as to why you refuse to consider any of the verses @Martin Marprelate and @AustinC are posting that seem to indicate something more going on than just your own decision, based on your own consideration of the gospel message. I mean @Silverhair 's post above is good info about the importance of faith but is there anything in that series of verses that say this faith has to be originated only from within yourself or else it is not valid? I'm not knocking what you are saying, just asking if you can explain. Also, if this faith does come totally from your own self then is it not necessary to say that when you find it you are finding a virtue and that those who believe are in some way better than those who don't believe?