Featured Justification by Faith

A "choosing back is required"?

*John 1:9-13*
The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

*John 10:24-29*
So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

Look at the two passages. How do people receive Jesus and believe in his name?
It isn't by just hearing, because people are told and they do not believe. It isn't by human willpower or God would not have to make a person alive (Ephesians 2:4-5). They would make themselves alive by their own will.
Jesus tells you.
"I give them eternal life." "My Father, who has given them to me...and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand."

MrW, the whole of scripture interprets the individual passage.

Why are you so determined to not give God all the glory for your salvation? I don't understand that.

 

Well Austin according to your theological view man cannot believe prior to regeneration but that is not what these verses shows it.

Rom 3:21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
Rom 3:25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
Rom 3:26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He {God the Father} would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.
Rom 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
Rom 3:29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,
Rom 3:30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised {Jews} by faith and the uncircumcised {Gentiles} through faith is one.

Of course you will deny that is what is shows but I expected that, I realize that you have to defend your errant view.

 

Dave you are making bogus claims again. You say @MrW and I do not consider verses from @Martin Marprelate or @AustinC. I have considered the verses they give and have answered them which is more that I can say for Martin or Austin. Dave you require that a persons faith come from outside of them, in your case it has to be the Holy Spirit that gives one faith or else they cannot believe. So lets look at that logically, since in your view it has to be the HS then if the HS does not give them faith they can't believe. So you have just made God the only one responsible for someone being in hell as the HS in your view controls who can and who can not believe.

Dave I have taken pains to show you what I believe and you still do not seem to grasp it.
I will try once again, God is actively working in and through His creation, our conscience, His bride, His Holy Spirit filled followers, and His Word to aid humanity in their conversion. You seem to be stuck on, the HS has to do something. What do you think John 16:8-9 is saying? what do you think our conscience means? Man has to put their faith in Christ Jesus God will not do it for them. Calvinists need God to be the one that gives you faith, that is not biblical and you & Martin & Austin should know this and you would if you would just trust what the HS said.

Salvation is wholly of God in that He owes no man forgiveness or eternal life, even if they freely repent and humbly submit to Him as Lord and Savior.
Asking for forgiveness no more merits that forgiveness than the prodigal son’s return home merited the reception he received from his father.
The false belief that forgiveness is somehow owed to those who freely humble themselves and ask for it leads to erroneous conclusions.
Faith in Christ Jesus is not a work, it is not meritorious but it is God's condition for salvation.

Now perhaps you will stop with the false accusations.

 

Was Paul addressing salvation or justification in Romans 1 through Romans 11? Since you are quoting Romans 3 is Romans 3 addressing the process of salvation or the means of justification?

Finally, as we see in the great soteriological passage in Ephesians 2 we see in this great justification passage in Romans 3. In both passages...faith is a gift of God.

Now, Sliverhair, what comes first, Salvation or Justification?

It seems that you may not know the difference between the two.

 

Yes. John 1:12.

We receive Him by believing Him, as evidenced by v. 13 and John 3:16.

I cannot withhold from God what He already and always possesses—all glory is His, and I wouldn’t want it any other way.

The All Glory God inspired John 1:12. To my best ability, I obeyed Him. That is the proper response to Him.

 

Austin as per usual you never answer questions or deal with the scripture that I post. We have gone over this many many times and yet the text of the bible goes right over your head. How many times must you be shown truth before you will accept it? You continue to hold to your errant philosophy. You cannot even grasp the truth of Ephesians 1:13.
Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
or these words
Joh 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Man does not save himself but God only saves those that trust in His son. I have said this numerous times but you refuse to accept it as it does not fit your theology. What does this verse tell you Austin?
Rom 3:26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Since you do not seem to understand what salvation or justification mean I copied these from Webster just for you.

SALVA'TION, n. [L. salvo, to save.]
2. Appropriately in theology, the redemption of man from the bondage of sin and liability to eternal death, and the conferring on him everlasting happiness. This is the great salvation.

JUSTIFICA'TION, n.
4. In theology, remission of sin and absolution from guilt and punishment; or an act of free grace by which God pardons the sinner and accepts him as righteous, on account of the atonement of Christ.

It is really sad that you fight so hard to avoid what the Holy Spirit wanted you to know. I have taken pains to point you to scripture and you jump through hoops to avoid what the bible clearly says. Why do you not trust what God has said?

You hold to a philosophy the comes from pagan roots as I have shown you but I doubt that you actually took the time to do any investigation on your own. When the root is bad the fruit will be bad.

 

If a group of kids start heading out on the lake to play on thin ice and I warn them not to and they give me the finger and go on out but I grab a couple of them by the collar and drag them up the bank - when the rest fall in, am I responsible for that? You are the one making God responsible for that which He is not. What's next? Why didn't he grab all of them? Why did he put the lake there? Why didn't he make the ice thicker? There is no limit to your making God unfair either.

If you say that God instead posted clear signs on the edge of the lake and you either heed the warning or not and it's on you; there is still the problem of why did God put the lake there, make the ice thin, make us with a nature that playing on the ice is fun and so on. Then you have to move logically to where those who heeded the warning were better in virtue or intelligence or maybe just more timid but you could blame God for that too I guess. You are putting a bunch of supposed contradictions and inconsistencies on Calvinism that your system doesn't deal with either. The only thing you have is this autonomous free will which in reality does not exist. The default argument is that you have to have the power of contrary choice, which is bogus because the reason you did not make a contrary choice is because you didn't want to. As a human, you do what you most want to do, according to your strongest inclination. That is where the Holy Spirit works and you are not in as much control as you think. Sorry. The Bible clearly teaches that the worst thing that can happen to us short of death is for us to be left to our own free will - to work out all our inclinations and desires to their conclusion.

 

Dave you are the one that keeps saying that if the Holy Spirit does not cause you to believe then you can not do so. You are just avoiding the logical outcome of your view. If one can only believe if the HS causes them to do so then any that the HS does not cause to believe cannot do so. I have posted clear text that shows you that God does influence people and yet you keep saying that is not enough, You want God to take them by the hand and drag them to salvation. Your view is not biblical but it does fit with your Calvinist philosophy.

I have told you a number of times that man does not have an autonomous free will, no one does. Dave can you flap your arms an fly? But God, who is sovereign, has given man a free will. Calvinists just do not like the idea that God would actually allow man to make real choices. How you can continue to ignore scripture is amazing. Your view muddies the character of God.

So what is free will in the bible and in life:
Free will is the capacity for agents to choose between different possible courses of action (aka choosing “otherwise”). This does not require the person to be able to choose anything, nor does it require the absence of other influencing factors. It only requires the ability for a person confronted with a decision to be able to choose from among one or more possible options.

Notice what it says here in this text:
Pe 1:20 He {Jesus} was destined before the foundation of the world, but was revealed at the end of the ages for your sake.
1Pe 1:21 Through him you have come to trust in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are set on God.
Rom 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

This from Webster:
Evangelical, justifying, or saving faith, is the assent of the mind to the truth of divine revelation, on the authority of God's testimony, accompanied with a cordial assent of the will or approbation of the heart; an entire confidence or trust in God's character and declarations, and in the character and doctrines of Christ, with an unreserved surrender of the will to his guidance, and dependence on his merits for salvation. In other words, that firm belief of God's testimony, and of the truth of the gospel, which influences the will, and leads to an entire reliance on Christ for salvation.

Man has a God given free will and will be held responsible for the choices they make. Why is that so hard for the Calvinist to see? Is it a case of being willfully blind?

You along with all the other Calvinists on BB keep saying that man only wants to reject God so you must think the HS just inspired the scriptures as an exercise in futility. Why tell man to trust in Christ if they were unable to do so. Dave you are following a pagan philosophy that Augustine brought into the church.

You like to read so do your own investigation of the history of your theology. If after you do an honest search you want to hold to Gnostic and pagan teachings then that is up to you.

 

You're deflecting. I gave you specific passages and went through 2 Thessalonians 2 as well.
So, your "nothing burger" is you not liking what I said and since you have no actual biblical response to what I said, you deflect with a general flip of the hand and call it a "nothing burger." This has been your modus operandi from the moment I've interacted with you.

 

I do think that man has problems that go far beyond needing some form of instruction or for someone to show them the way. There is an innate bent toward rejection of God. This is basic scripture and is shared by most Baptists whether they identify as Calvinists or not. There are scriptures that seem to indicate the Holy Spirit having a pivotal role in your salvation. There are also scriptures that show people being presented with the gospel message and having to make a decision. I don't see any way around believing both things to be true. Can you offer any other path that makes sense?

(And as a side note, I have the books that say Augustine was following a pagan philosophy but they don't ever really make a case for how that is. I would like for someone to show how this works or stop using it. I have a limited understanding of Augustine but he seems remarkable for the time he lived in and the light he had access to. I do think Calvinists should be careful owning him the way they do.)

 

Bingo.

"Ever and anon the non-Cal cries, "Why doth He still find fault"?"

 

Sliverhair, I have addressed this on multiple occasions with you, going through each of these portions of scripture. Yet, everytime I do this, you act like I haven't addressed this. You then play this silly game of telling me that I don't trust God, or the Holy Spirit, or the Bible, etc., as you ignore the reality that I've already addressed the same point with you on multiple occasions.

So, salvation comes first. God's grace is the cause, which gives faith as an effect.
That gift of faith is what initiates our belief and is the reason why God justifies us by faith alone.

The order, is salvation (by grace), faith, justification, sanctification, glorification.

*Romans 8:29-30*
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

God is always the cause. He foreknew, predestined, called, justified, and glorified. Sliverhair, you did nothing to secure your salvation. That may cause you much agony to not be given the praise, but that praise is reserved only for God.

 

Yet, here you are giving glory to yourself. You make yourself the cause. You tell us that it was your will to believe that was your salvation. You tell us that it was your amazing ability to review the evidence and choose God that cause your salvation.

So, yes, you are openly withholding from God the glory due his name and you are giving that glory to yourself by telling us that it was your choice to believe, based upon the evidence, that cause your salvation.

You give God a backhanded slap in the face and you don't even recognize what you are doing.

 

It was my will to believe, amen (God requires it); it was God’s will to save me, therefore (since HE saved me) He keeps His glory while I am the recipient of His mercy and grace (not His glory—that’s impossible, because He is God and I’m His creation and adopted son [little “s” and so thankful to be His child]).

He knows it and I know it. Perhaps in Heaven, we will all realize it.

 

God calls; we answer.

Why would God call, if He did not expect an answer?

And why would He save me first and then draw me and call me when I’m already saved?

If I place my son in my lap, I’m not going to call him to come to me. I’ve already placed him as close to me as he can get.

I’m not going to tell him he must receive me as his father, since we both know I already am.

No, God calls those who are not His sons and daughters to come to Him, and when they do, He adopts them into His family.

Why would God call me if He does not expect me to answer?

 

Per Calvinism, we cannot heed the warning signs because we are dead and unable to respond.

No sense to the scenario at all.

 

Dave I have always said man sins, just look around. But you seem to overlook what God has done and is doing. Must I post my views again. Dave I have not denied the roll of the Holy Spirit but you seem to require the He does everything and man just comes along for the ride.

Man actually has a God given free will but your Calvinist view rejects this. What is the purpose of scripture such as these:
Rom 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Act 16:31 They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes,
Rom 3:26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

If man does not have an actual free will then these verse are meaningless, they are just so much window dressing.

 

Austin, it is a fact that I write Christian music. The words and music do not jump onto the page by themselves, and God doesn't put them there by a sovereign miracle of His own will, apart from me. Yet I do believe He gave me the brain that I employ to write the music. I believe He "inspires" my music, and I mean that in a humble spirit. Why me? But I believe He does.

But I do have to use that talent or ability or whatever, or the music will not exist.

I BELIEVE God Himself gave EVERY human being the ability to respond to Him--to reject Him or receive Him, the Lord Jesus Christ. I believe that is exactly what is taught in Scripture, and I'm not going to deny Scripture and deny God in the process. If I believed Calvin and his followers, his successors, I would have to reject what I read every day in Scripture. I hope you understand that is impossible for me, since I believe I am a Christian, I believe the Bible, and I believe I must be faithful and obedient to God, for that is His will.

 

No, I don’t think ability comes solely from me any more than I believe I created myself.

I believe God has placed in everyone the ability to trust Christ upon hearing the Gospel because the POWER unto salvation is resident in the Gospel of Christ. It is the power of God UNTO salvation to everyone who believes; Romans 1:16.

I think we should give more credit to the WORD of God than we do, for He honors His Word above His name. God cannot lie, so Romans 1:16 is absolute truth.