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The Biblical Doctrine of Election
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
Why?
Because of the controversy that is often generated?
It's part of "Baptist" theology and Bible study and has been... for centuries.
My opinion is that if all of the Bible's teachings cannot be discussed openly and without censure in this section, then perhaps it should not be labeled " Baptist Theology and Bible Study"...it should be named something like, " Baptist Theology minus what many call "Calvinism" and "Arminianism".
Wouldn't you agree?
Granted, there's no reason that people should behave in an unChristian manner towards anyone over any subject...and this thread shows even more reason I tend not to participate in these discussions anymore.
But to limit a doctrinal discussion to one section just because it pertains to "certain theology", is not and never was seeking to let God Himself, through His every word, speak on any and all subjects.
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Hebrews 10:29 ('interpretive' translation)
Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant, by which the Son of God was set apart a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of Grace.
'Son of God' is the nearest antecedent, which means that it is the closest relevant noun to the verb, and should therefore, all other things being equal, be assumed to be the subject of the clause. Those who trample the Son of God underfoot, count His blood a common thing and insult the Holy Spirit are not in the covenant.
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I already addressed this false claim several times in this thread. Obfuscation on display.
M - Of how much worse punishment
V - How much worse punishment
M - do you suppose
V - do you suppose
M - will he be thought worthy
V - the one will be counted worthy
M - who has trampled the Son of God underfoot
V - having trampled on the Son of God
Note that the above translations are basically the same!
M - counted the blood of the covenant
V - and deemed as contaminated the blood of the covenant.
Now we have a significant difference. Here is the NASB rendering:
NASB
How much more severe punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
N - and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant
V - and deemed as contaminated the blood of the covenant.
N - by which he was sanctified
V - in which that person was set apart
N - and has insulted the Spirit of grace
V - outraging the Spirit of Grace.
Thus my interpretative translation follows the NASB grammatical structure.
Now lets look at Martin's rendering:
by which the Son of God was set apart a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of Grace.
1) Was the Son of God set apart or was the one trampling on the Son of God set apart? The one trampling.
2) What does "a common thing" modify? The blood of the covenant!
Nuff said
Did I say all our faith is a filthy rag. After God credits our faith as righteousness, it is righteous faith.What it doesn't say is that all our faith is like a filthy rag.
They will make up any false charge and post it rather than discuss biblical election.
The biblical doctrine of election is not Doctor Wallace’s doctrine of election, the biblical doctrine is conditional, it occurs during our lifetime; God chose us individually out of this world, not before the foundation of the world, when He chose Christ. The only way I see to reconcile Ephesians 1:4, He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, with 2 Thessalonians 2:13, and John 15:19 and 1 Peter 2:9-10 and James 2:5 is to understand the phrase “He chose us in Him” as meaning He chose Christ to be His Redeemer, His Lamb of God (1 Peter 1:20) before the foundation of the world, and since you do not choose a Redeemer without a plan to redeem, God’s choice of Christ chose us corporately as a target group of His Redemption plan but not individually. Thus Paul is speaking to those who have been redeemed during their lives, and is letting them know of the many blessings they have received, the first one being the blessing that was directed toward them when God chose Christ.
Stop.
Either it's our flesh filled faith or it's God's gift of faith.
Van is faith innate in every human?
If you believe God gave everyone innate faith before God quickened us, then that faith is just as corrupted as every part of us. It cannot, ever, be considered righteous by God.
So what is it, Van, is faith innate in every human or is faith a gift of God at salvation?
Yet another nonsense post. Our filthy rag faith, if credited to us as righteousness becomes righteous faith due to the grace of God. This is a rather simple concept. Do you believe each and every Calvinist poster cannot grasp the obvious. Neither do I.
This is the thread topic, the one none of the deniers addresses. Ask yourselves, why not?
The biblical doctrine of election is not Doctor Wallace’s doctrine of election, the biblical doctrine is conditional, it occurs during our lifetime; God chose us individually out of this world, not before the foundation of the world, when He chose Christ. The only way I see to reconcile Ephesians 1:4, He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, with 2 Thessalonians 2:13, and John 15:19 and 1 Peter 2:9-10 and James 2:5 is to understand the phrase “He chose us in Him” as meaning He chose Christ to be His Redeemer, His Lamb of God (1 Peter 1:20) before the foundation of the world, and since you do not choose a Redeemer without a plan to redeem, God’s choice of Christ chose us corporately as a target group of His Redemption plan but not individually. Thus Paul is speaking to those who have been redeemed during their lives, and is letting them know of the many blessings they have received, the first one being the blessing that was directed toward them when God chose Christ.
The biblical doctrine of election is not Doctor Wallace’s doctrine of election, the biblical doctrine is conditional, it occurs during our lifetime; God chose us individually out of this world, not before the foundation of the world, when He chose Christ. The only way I see to reconcile Ephesians 1:4, He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, with 2 Thessalonians 2:13, and John 15:19 and 1 Peter 2:9-10 and James 2:5 is to understand the phrase “He chose us in Him” as meaning He chose Christ to be His Redeemer, His Lamb of God (1 Peter 1:20) before the foundation of the world, and since you do not choose a Redeemer without a plan to redeem, God’s choice of Christ chose us corporately as a target group of His Redemption plan but not individually. Thus Paul is speaking to those who have been redeemed during their lives, and is letting them know of the many blessings they have received, the first one being the blessing that was directed toward them when God chose Christ.
and she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus, for he shall save his people from their sins.'
If salvation is, of faith, does it not stand to reason, from the above, that it must be the faith of Jesus that brings that salvation?
What exactly is/was, the faith of Jesus?
Does the obedience of One have anything to do with, the faith of Jesus?
Heb 5:7,8 YLT who in the days of his flesh both prayers and supplications unto Him who was able to save him from death -- with strong crying and tears -- having offered up, and having been heard in respect to that which he feared, through being a Son, did learn by the things which he suffered -- the obedience,
Here we have one called Son about to die calling out to another One who is able to save the Son out of the death he is about to die, yet through all this he learns, the obedience. The obedience of what?
V 9 and having been made perfect, he did become to all those obeying him a cause of salvation age-during,
Exactly how did the one who died become cause of eternal salvation? Had the Son been made sin? How? What happened to that sin? Where did it go? How was he made perfect with all that sin having been put on him?
From James 1:15 and the sin having been perfected [finished], doth bring forth death.
On Nisan 14 sin put on him thus he gives his life, dies. 15th dead, sin on him or not? 16th dead, sin on him or not? 17th dead, sin on him or not? 18th alive out of the dead, what happened to the sin that had been put on him?
Eph 4:9,10 and that, he went up, what is it except that he also went down first to the lower parts of the earth? he who went down is the same also who went up far above all the heavens, that He may fill all things --
Is that true of anyone else who has ever lived and died?
Luke 24:27 and having begun from Moses, and from all the prophets, he was expounding to them in all the Writings the things about himself.
I wonder if that included Psalms 139:15
If salvation is, of faith, does it not stand to reason, from the above, that it must be the faith of Jesus that brings that salvation?
What exactly is/was, the faith of Jesus?
Does the obedience of One have anything to do with, the faith of Jesus?
Heb 5:7,8 YLT who in the days of his flesh both prayers and supplications unto Him who was able to save him from death -- with strong crying and tears -- having offered up, and having been heard in respect to that which he feared, through being a Son, did learn by the things which he suffered -- the obedience,
Here we have one called Son about to die calling out to another One who is able to save the Son out of the death he is about to die, yet through all this he learns, the obedience. The obedience of what?
V 9 and having been made perfect, he did become to all those obeying him a cause of salvation age-during,
Exactly how did the one who died become cause of eternal salvation? Had the Son been made sin? How? What happened to that sin? Where did it go? How was he made perfect with all that sin having been put on him?
From James 1:15 and the sin having been perfected [finished], doth bring forth death.
On Nisan 14 sin put on him thus he gives his life, dies. 15th dead, sin on him or not? 16th dead, sin on him or not? 17th dead, sin on him or not? 18th alive out of the dead, what happened to the sin that had been put on him?
Eph 4:9,10 and that, he went up, what is it except that he also went down first to the lower parts of the earth? he who went down is the same also who went up far above all the heavens, that He may fill all things --
Is that true of anyone else who has ever lived and died?
Luke 24:27 and having begun from Moses, and from all the prophets, he was expounding to them in all the Writings the things about himself.
I wonder if that included Psalms 139:15
Percho, I have already addressed "faith of Jesus" and explained it to you.
Jesus was faithful, He had His mission as the Lamb of God, and He fulfilled that mission, including the sacrifice of His physical life. And of course, without His sacrifice, we could not be saved, so it is the faithfulness of Jesus that brings salvation to humanity.
However, this thread is about the biblical doctrine of Election. Do you have anything to say on that subject?
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Van I think you have missed the intent of Isa 64:6 "And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags;" Isaiah is speaking of our selfrighteousness here. Our acts that we consider to be righteous are nothing before God. Read on in the verse "And our iniquities, like the wind, Have taken us away." As we see in verse 5, because of our sin we need to be saved, we have on righteousness before God. These verses are not speaking of faith but rather our attempts to earn favor before God by our actions, our piety.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Well since the bible shows us that we have to believe before we are saved it would seem the Holy Spirit trusts man to be able to hear the gospel message and believe that message and God saves those that actually believe in His son. So it is not a matter of innate faith but rather faith based upon information presented. God does not give one faith to believe that is just your philosophy.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
It was the obedience of Christ Jesus in going to the cross that paid the sin debt of mankind. It is the risen Christ Jesus that makes redemption possible for all of mankind. Those that trust in the risen Christ will be saved by the grace of God those that reject the risen Christ will be lost.
I gave you two reasons why it is the Son of God who was set apart, and the NASB translation does not disagree with them. I also showed you that John Owen supports this understanding in his commentary, as does A.W. Pink in his. While Presbyterians may disagree, I don't think a Baptist can support the view that someone who tramples the Son of God and insults the Spirit of grace can really be sanctified by God.
Of course! the 'blood of the covenant is the nearest antecedent to 'a common thing' just as 'Son of God is the nearest antecedent to 'sanctified.'
Yes, I think so. I have made my points (twice) and unless you are prepared to address them I shall finish here.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Those that turn away from OT law were killed those that turn away from grace once received will die. Context must inform us in trying to understand scripture.
We know Paul is addressing believers:
Heb 10:26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
Paul is pointing to the deliberate sin that one continues to do knowing that it is wrong.
Paul is making a comparison here between one who was under the law and one who was under grace.
Heb 10:28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
Heb 10:29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who
has trampled under foot the Son of God,
and
has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant
by which he was sanctified,
and
has insulted the Spirit of grace?
The issue here is not sinning believers. The issue Paul is addressing is believers who cease to believe. The idea of one being lost, saved, lost, saved is not in view here and is not something found in the bible.
If I have understood you correctly, I agree with you. One cannot be in Christ one moment, out the next, and maybe back in again sometime afterwards. Therefore, someone who tramples the Son of God underfoot and insults the Holy Spirit cannot have been sanctified by God. Therefore, '....by which he was sanctified' cannot refer to the person who commits these sins (c.f. Matthew 12:31; 1 John 2:19) and therefore must refer to the 'Son of God' who is, as I keep telling people, the nearest antecedent and therefore prime candidate. I have also offered John 17:19; Hebrews 13:20 in support of this understanding..
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