Calvinist dead

[DaveXR650]

If this is not 'humanistic reasoning', it's some form of wishy washy watering it down.

No. Changing the word to wishy washy is not a reply.
And inserting the word "seems" was for no purpose other than to soften the statement and give it more of a conciliatory tone. There was nothing else thought of. So try once more at answering the question.

 

[JonC]

Hmm, catholism and symbolism is heavy (like the cross and stained glass window) then Calvinism and a solid rejection of said symbolism … I see both having transcendent experiences in an attempt at attaining an inward spiritual experience. But I do not see the link. The uniqueness of my spiritual experience totally lies in biblical truth in translating the word of God into His will for us to live and think…and that is transformative.

What I was looking for is a link between Catholicism & Calvinism, surely as an ex-Calvinist you could explain how they are codependent to one another.

The link is in the reasoning. Calvinism rejected what it saw as wrong in Roman Catholicism. This included ornate structures. But Calvinism also reformed Catholic doctrines where they thought the RCC got it wrong. Calvinists were, literally, Catholic. They reformed the beliefs they held.

The problem comes in with what Calvinism maintained (what Calvinists did not identify as errors and carried over into their theology). This includes their basic belief in the "human problem", the structure of redeeming man, the State as an "arm of the Church" . . . among other things.

Some of those Calvinistic beliefs have changed in contemporary Calvinism (like the union of Church and State), some Calvinistic beliefs are in the process of being reformed by movements within Calvinism (like the Calvinistic understanding of the Cross), and some remain strong.

 

[Silverhair]

Now you're insulting Silverhair. We go round and round sometimes too and usually end up agreeing to disagree. But I don't know if he's ever just been insulting, without making a point.

I try not to be insulting but I do try to make a point. Will admit I did get a chuckle out of the post.

Dave you and I do cross swords but we are civil which is not what I would say about some others on this board.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Let me give youse guys my example of the perfect Calvinist (in his thinking process).

Martin Luther in a debate with his protege Philip Melanchthon … old Phil argued that even if a sinner cannot contribute anything positive to his salvation, at least he does not resist Gods grace when it comes. This non-resistance may seem like a very small contribution, certainly too small to make much difference. However, Luther warned that this very little was actually more dangerous than the very much that the Pelagians demanded when they argued that man was wholly capable of meriting gods grace. what makes it dangerous was its subtlety. After all, what was the harm in adding just a little bit of human effort to the work of God? But Luther recognized this was tantamount to the error of Roman Catholicism, which insisted that the Will of Man is the decisive factor in salvation. He also recognized that the leaven of synergism eventually works its way through the entire loaf of soteriology.

So in summation, what was the issue that Martin Luther pressed so hard a for, it was the Reformation principle of Sola Grata, BY GRACE ALONE. To add anything at all to God’s grace is to destroy its graciousness… it’s very nature as a gift. So if man contributes any essential part towards his salvation, he effectively becomes s to own savior.

 

[AustinC]

I try not to be insulting but I do try to make a point. Will admit I did get a chuckle out of the post.

Dave you and I do cross swords but we are civil which is not what I would say about some others on this board.

You remind me of Mr By-ends.
Guide to The Pilgrim's Progress | Conversation with By-ends

 

[JD731]

JD... I'm not telling you to believe the way I believe, you want to believe something different that is your right... You want to post later your views I'll take a look at it and may change my mind but for right now what I said stands... I learned a long time ago this lesson... Scripture MUST Harmonize!... If scripture is in conflict with another scripture, then the error is in the reader NEVER the writer... The word Sovereignty Of God doesn't need to be in your Bible because it is declared from Genesis through Revelation... God does the saving alone, man does the discipling through God... Brother Glen

If one were of a mind to describe the principle by which God is advancing his will on the earth by using terms that are not in the scriptures, one would be much closer to reality by using the terminology, "providence of God" rather than "sovereignty of God." Providence allows for God to adjust history and events to achieve his purposes among his creatures in spite of the opposition from unrepentant sinners, devils, and fallen principalities and powers in heavenly places who are invested in thwarting his will. Thus his infinite wisdom is on display and he cannot be accused of creating entities in his universe strictly for the purpose of sinning. None of the other attributes of his character are compromised under this principle.

You need to consider this because sovereign determinism is a very false doctrine and at the end of the day blames God for all evil.

 

[JD731]

Let me give youse guys my example of the perfect Calvinist (in his thinking process).

Martin Luther in a debate with his protege Philip Melanchthon … old Phil argued that even if a sinner cannot contribute anything positive to his salvation, at least he does not resist Gods grace when it comes. This non-resistance may seem like a very small contribution, certainly too small to make much difference. However, Luther warned that this very little was actually more dangerous than the very much that the Pelagians demanded when they argued that man was wholly capable of meriting gods grace. what makes it dangerous was its subtlety. After all, what was the harm in adding just a little bit of human effort to the work of God? But Luther recognized this was tantamount to the error of Roman Catholicism, which insisted that the Will of Man is the decisive factor in salvation. He also recognized that the leaven of synergism eventually works its way through the entire loaf of soteriology.

So in summation, what was the issue that Martin Luther pressed so hard a for, it was the Reformation principle of Sola Grata, BY GRACE ALONE. To add anything at all to God’s grace is to destroy its graciousness… it’s very nature as a gift. So if man contributes any essential part towards his salvation, he effectively becomes s to own savior.

This is pure silliness and absolute ignorance, as was Martin Luther prone to be. This can be easily proven by the very fact that a gift must be acknowledged and received as your own possession. However, if you have ever been given a gift that you did not acknowledge and receive, after which you possessed as your own, just feel free to tell the rest of us about how it happened.

Here is a truth for you. If you have never acknowledged the gift of God that Jesus Christ purchased for sinners, which is eternal life, and has offered to us all, and if you have never received it as your own and possessed it by faith, then it is not yours today no matter how much you talk about it, and the same applies for me and every other Calvinist or Baptist wherever they are on this globe.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

This is pure silliness and absolute ignorance, as was Martin Luther prone to be. This can be easily proven by the very fact that a gift must be acknowledged and received as your own possession. However, if you have ever been given a gift that you did not acknowledge and receive, after which you possessed as your own, just feel free to tell the rest of us about how it happened.

Here is a truth for you. If you have never acknowledged the gift of God that Jesus Christ purchased for sinners, which is eternal life, and has offered to us all, and if you have never received it as your own and possessed it by faith, then it is not yours today no matter how much you talk about it, and the same applies for me and every other Calvinist or Baptist wherever they are on this globe.

Wow! CALLING Martin Luther ignorant, now that’s funny!

 

[JD731]

Well, thanks for the reply. I read that thread. I guess I just don't agree with the logical connection between the two though. I will say this. There are Calvinist writers that say men can go quite far in pursuing morality and virtue and in attempting to follow God's laws. They just insist that a saving faith in Christ and the renouncing of all self worth or merit is out of our reach without a supernatural work of the Holy Spirit.

One reason I don't get upset with those who come to Christ by faith yet aren't Calvinist in their theology is that I believe if you come it is because the Holy Spirit worked in you. But even if you don't see it that way saving faith is saving faith. I believe scripture supports my theology but here is the important distinction. Calvinism teaches that God has a decreed will and a revealed will. What he has decreed is what is going to come to pass. What he has revealed as His will is what we are supposed to hear and obey. His revealed will to all of us is that we repent and believe the gospel. Those who do that are pleasing God by doing His revealed will and they are part of His divine decree of election. His decreed will is that before the foundation of the world God chose an "elect" that in His timing will be brought to faith and salvation. If I'm wrong on that I'm not going to be angry if someday I find out it was totally due to my good sense that I repented and believed. And I hope you won't be disappointed if you find out someday that you were elect from the foundation of the world.

Dave I have heard this business for years about the Holy Spirit working in someone. God does not send his preachers out with the Holy Spirit to distribute to sinners to work in them. I want to know where the scriptures tells us the Holy Spirit works in sinners. It is the word of God, the gospel, that God sends his preachers out to preach to sinners and it is the preaching of this word that convinces sinners to believe.

Here is a classic statement that should settle the matter for Bible believers.

Ga 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

The law is the word of God. Nothing about the Holy Spirit working in us here.

1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Ro 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

There are not two powers in the work of God to save people. The Holy Spirit is the power to live a righteous and God pleasing life AFTER we are saved.

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

We need to learn to practice lower criticism of all our teachers no matter who they are and in the end believe the words of God. His words are often not the same as our favorite teachers.

 

[JD731]

Wow! CALLING Martin Luther ignorant, now that’s funny!

He is the Father of the Protestant Reformation we are told by history books. Jesus said one can judge a tree by the fruit it bears. The fruit of this tree is Calvinism, which is corrupt.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

He is the Father of the Protestant Reformation we are told by history books. Jesus said one can judge a tree by the fruit it bears. The fruit of this tree is Calvinism, which is corrupt.

Said who.

 

[JD731]

Said who.

Answer my question about your gift first.

 

[DaveXR650]

Dave I have heard this business for years about the Holy Spirit working in someone. God does not send his preachers out with the Holy Spirit to distribute to sinners to work in them. I want to know where the scriptures tells us the Holy Spirit works in sinners. It is the word of God, the gospel, that God sends his preachers out to preach to sinners and it is the preaching of this word that convinces sinners to believe.

You said a lot in that post. We are at 133 already and this thread will soon be shut down. I would love to see you start a new thread on this but I would ask you this. Are you just fed up with the asinine comments as I am or are you truly of the belief that the Holy Spirit need not play any role in the salvation of an individual? You may want to restate your position because there are plenty of Baptist non-Calvinists on here who believe in varying levels of Holy Spirit work in an individual's salvation. There is a range of possible Holy Spirit work from conviction all the way to faith being a total gift. "This business about the Holy Spirit working in someone" has a wide range of meanings but the idea that it totally doesn't happen is quite radical and I think will be demolished fairly quickly. But go ahead if you would like to.

 

[MrW]

Well, thanks for the reply. I read that thread. I guess I just don't agree with the logical connection between the two though. I will say this. There are Calvinist writers that say men can go quite far in pursuing morality and virtue and in attempting to follow God's laws. They just insist that a saving faith in Christ and the renouncing of all self worth or merit is out of our reach without a supernatural work of the Holy Spirit.

One reason I don't get upset with those who come to Christ by faith yet aren't Calvinist in their theology is that I believe if you come it is because the Holy Spirit worked in you. But even if you don't see it that way saving faith is saving faith. I believe scripture supports my theology but here is the important distinction. Calvinism teaches that God has a decreed will and a revealed will. What he has decreed is what is going to come to pass. What he has revealed as His will is what we are supposed to hear and obey. His revealed will to all of us is that we repent and believe the gospel. Those who do that are pleasing God by doing His revealed will and they are part of His divine decree of election. His decreed will is that before the foundation of the world God chose an "elect" that in His timing will be brought to faith and salvation. If I'm wrong on that I'm not going to be angry if someday I find out it was totally due to my good sense that I repented and believed. And I hope you won't be disappointed if you find out someday that you were elect from the foundation of the world.

Yes, Calvinists have these different and contradictory “wills” of God but they’re inventions, not Scripture.

The Bible is clear God doesn’t will people to be lost, but to be saved. They do it to themselves. If He willed them to be lost, they wouldn’t be responsible.

God is God. What He did or does is right; I find no fault in Him, now nor ever.

Thank for your posts. I have enjoyed reading them and I’m good with however He saves those who believe. I still find grace to be amazing! To think, God became man to suffer and die for our salvation! Amazing grace; amen!

 

[DaveXR650]

Yes, Calvinists have these different and contradictory “wills” of God but they’re inventions, not Scripture.

Nah, two scriptures come to mind immediately. One would be the case of Joseph. He said to his brothers that God had sent him ahead by their actions so that his people could be saved during the famine. That was God's decreed will and it had to happen. Yet selling your brother into slavery and faking his death was against the known and revealed will of God. Those brothers sinned against God by doing that - yet they accomplished His decreed will.

The biggest case would be those who set up an unjust trial and then the killing of Jesus. Totally against God's revealed will. Yet totally according to His decreed will. That's all that means. In the case of election or calling being not inclusive of everyone you have to keep in mind that there will not be a sure way to make God seem "fair" to our human sensibilities. Just saying He wills all men to be saved while true in a sense still leaves us trying to explain vast numbers of folks who never heard the gospel and huge differences in experiences of individuals even within an "open to the gospel" country. Non-Calvinists are not off the hook if they try to explain some concept of equity or fairness in opportunities for salvation. So I don't see why only Calvinists should be the only ones responsible for explaining why God doesn't appear to be completely fair.

I still find grace to be amazing! To think, God became man to suffer and die for our salvation! Amazing grace; amen!

Amen on that.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

Brethren!... The final answer comes down to this is God Sovereign or is man?... If God is Sovereign man is not, if man is sovereign God can never be... Question... Why was man and woman the last thing God created?... So man could not take any credit in the creation yet they are still claiming they merited eternal Salvation in something they did in tandem with God... A gift is not something you earn... Brother Glen

Aye, there’s the rub. But no one denies God is sovereign. The problem is in how sovereign God is. If God is “allowed” to be fully sovereign, sovereign in every respect, then God is able to endow man with choice. In this, so-called “Calvinists” seem to deny God’s ability to be fully sovereign, again seemingly for fear that this gift of choice might somehow diminish God.

 

[Salty]

Six hour warning:
this thread will be closed no sooner than

1030 hrs GMT, 630 am EDT / 330 am PDT

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Answer my question about your gift first.

A little red wagon

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You said a lot in that post. We are at 133 already and this thread will soon be shut down. I would love to see you start a new thread on this but I would ask you this. Are you just fed up with the asinine comments as I am or are you truly of the belief that the Holy Spirit need not play any role in the salvation of an individual? You may want to restate your position because there are plenty of Baptist non-Calvinists on here who believe in varying levels of Holy Spirit work in an individual's salvation. There is a range of possible Holy Spirit work from conviction all the way to faith being a total gift. "This business about the Holy Spirit working in someone" has a wide range of meanings but the idea that it totally doesn't happen is quite radical and I think will be demolished fairly quickly. But go ahead if you would like to.

Yea, go ahead

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Aye, there’s the rub. But no one denies God is sovereign. The problem is in how sovereign God is. If God is “allowed” to be fully sovereign, sovereign in every respect, then God is able to endow man with choice. In this, so-called “Calvinists” seem to deny God’s ability to be fully sovereign, again seemingly for fear that this gift of choice might somehow diminish God.

What the heck are you talking about? Who are the so called Calvinists and who indicated that there is no choice?