The Religion of Grace vs. the Religion of Works

[Silverhair]

Who told you that?

The bible.

Joh 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

Act 16:30 And he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
Act 16:31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES ON HIM WILL NOT BE PUT TO SHAME."

 

[Silverhair]

It appears that he is still in rebellion of a sovereign God. The Homosexuals & Transvestites are in rebellion as well. But be relentless in your commitment… perhaps with Gods help…

Yes I agree those of us that believe the bible must be relentless in pointing those in error, that follow a man-made philosophy, to the truth of scripture.

 

[AustinC]

The bible.

Joh 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

Act 16:30 And he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
Act 16:31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES ON HIM WILL NOT BE PUT TO SHAME."

Do those verses actually teach what you declared? You said: "The elect are those that God has saved after they have freely trusted in His son."

Can you admit you have it backwards? You state this:
First: A human freely chooses to trust Jesus. (That is before God ever does anything. (
Second: God saves those who freely choose God.
Third: God chooses to elect those he saves because that human first freely choose to trust Jesus.

Sliverhair, you have to openly ignore the context of every verse you used as a prooftext as well as ignore the overall Biblical construct of God's means of choosing, electing, and predestining His people.

Only someone who loves himself over God will agree with your teaching.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

My own Church Community is in solitary in the belief that our church assembly is the Church of Jesus Christ, endeavoring to attain at all times to the doctrines and practices of the true church as are outlined in the New Testament. We do not claim that we are perfect any more than any of the New Testament churches were perfect, but we do strive to teach only that which God's Word teaches and to practice only that which God's Word instructs us to practice.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Yes I agree those of us that believe the bible must be relentless in pointing those in error, that follow a man-made philosophy, to the truth of scripture.

Prove to me that it’s man made… see, you offer no proof, only opinion.

 

[Silverhair]

Prove to me that it’s man made… see, you offer no proof, only opinion.

When you deny clear scripture then you are following a man-made theology.


Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Rom 5:2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

You always overlook the through faith part. Man has to trust in Christ Jesus before God saves him. You need to start trusting what the Holy Spirit says rather than men.

So rather than deal with these verses you dodge and try to deflect with this:
So how does that work with children who die in childbirth… how is trust established?

So I answered you:
You overlook the mercy of God. Those that are able to make rational choices are held responsible for those choices.

But again deflection from you:
Oh but I do respect His mercy, more than you think… I also believe He is consistent with that mercy with His chosen. And that’s done now and into eternity.

So while you say you respect His mercy it seems it is only mercy for the so call "chosen". So you fall back into your man-made theology. So by your own words you get your proof.

 

[AustinC]

When you deny clear scripture then you are following a man-made theology.

Pot, meet Kettle.

 

[Alan Gross]

Third: God chooses to elect those he saves

What would be the purpose of the word, "elect", or for God to bring up the word, "elect" in the Bible?

"God chooses to "elect" someone, after they do something?(?)

Why would He?

Or, why would He have to?

Does anyone know?

 

[AustinC]

What would be the purpose of the word, "elect", or for God to bring up the word, "elect" in the Bible?

"God chooses to "elect" someone, after they do something?(?)

Why would He?

Or, why would He have to?

Does anyone know?

It does beg the question, doesn't it.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

When you deny clear scripture then you are following a man-made theology.


Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Rom 5:2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

You always overlook the through faith part. Man has to trust in Christ Jesus before God saves him. You need to start trusting what the Holy Spirit says rather than men.

So rather than deal with these verses you dodge and try to deflect with this:
So how does that work with children who die in childbirth… how is trust established?

So I answered you:
You overlook the mercy of God. Those that are able to make rational choices are held responsible for those choices.

you have it backwards… Regeneration comes before conversion. A sinner never Admits to being in rebellion to God, not until God (through the Holy Ghost) points it out. So once that occurs the sinner becomes aware of his errors, actually ashamed of himself. Then and only then can & will he change his direction. That’s not only scriptural, it’s logical.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

What would be the purpose of the word, "elect", or for God to bring up the word, "elect" in the Bible?

"God chooses to "elect" someone, after they do something?(?)

Why would He?


Or, why would He have to?

Does anyone know?

Seriously Alan, do really anticipate an answer from a Semi-Pelegian?

 

[Silverhair]

you have it backwards… Regeneration comes before conversion. A sinner never Admits to being in rebellion to God, not until God (through the Holy Ghost) points it out. So once that occurs the sinner becomes aware of his errors, actually ashamed of himself. Then and only then can & will he change his direction. That’s not only scriptural, it’s logical.

Do you not find it strange that the bible does not agree with your view. You follow your man-made theology or what ever you want to call it and I will trust what the Holy Spirit says.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Do you not find it strange that the bible does not agree with your view. You follow your man-made theology or what ever you want to call it and I will trust what the Holy Spirit says.

I find it strange that you persist in seeing scripture so backassward to be frank. The posture you take does not present scripture correctly, rather it confounds it and obscures it to meet your man made purposes. Many people on BB have pointed this out to you, it’s not just me but you insist on your tirades but to no avail.

 

[Silverhair]

I find it strange that you persist in seeing scripture so backassward to be frank. The posture you take does not present scripture correctly, rather it confounds it and obscures it to meet your man made purposes. Many people on BB have pointed this out to you, it’s not just me but you insist on your tirades but to no avail.

Now I see it as you are the one that has the incorrect view of theology. And I am sure that many on BB have pointed that out to you but to no avail. I am not the one that has to twist scripture or redefine words to make them fit my view. I learned at an early age to trust the bible as it was the word of God. But it seems a number of people on BB do not hold that same view of scripture.

Funny that you would call my measured responses a tirade. I am not the one that uses the pejoratives and/or condescending comments. I would expect civil discourse on a Christian board but that does not always hold true does it.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Now I see it as you are the one that has the incorrect view of theology. And I am sure that many on BB have pointed that out to you but to no avail. I am not the one that has to twist scripture or redefine words to make them fit my view. I learned at an early age to trust the bible as it was the word of God. But it seems a number of people on BB do not hold that same view of scripture.

Funny that you would call my measured responses a tirade. I am not the one that uses the pejoratives and/or condescending comments. I would expect civil discourse on a Christian board but that does not always hold true does it.

FYI… nobody on this board has indicated that….

except you. Your thinking process is erroneous.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

But I am curious Silver Hair, do you hold to the position that the original sin of Adam did not taint human nature and that humans by divine grace have free will to achieve human perfection?

 

[MrW]

Now I see it as you are the one that has the incorrect view of theology. And I am sure that many on BB have pointed that out to you but to no avail. I am not the one that has to twist scripture or redefine words to make them fit my view. I learned at an early age to trust the bible as it was the word of God. But it seems a number of people on BB do not hold that same view of scripture.

Funny that you would call my measured responses a tirade. I am not the one that uses the pejoratives and/or condescending comments. I would expect civil discourse on a Christian board but that does not always hold true does it.

Silverhair DOES NOT obscure Scripture. He quotes it, and Scripture itself is clear. Believe and receive—reject and be lost.

Belief precedes the new birth. By grace are ye saved—THROUGH faith. Without faith, it is impossible to please God.

 

[AustinC]

Silverhair DOES NOT obscure Scripture. He quotes it, and Scripture itself is clear. Believe and receive—reject and be lost.

Belief precedes the new birth. By grace are ye saved—THROUGH faith. Without faith, it is impossible to please God.

You and Sliverhair are the same person so it is not surprising you say this about him.

Did you believe your mother and father before you were physically born?

I note you quote Ephesians 2:8, but you ignore Ephesians 2:4-5. You do this because in Ephesians 2:4-5 we see that God, even when we were dead, makes us alive and saves by grace. Then, once God has made you alive, you are given faith as a gift, which causes you to believe through faith that you indeed are saved.
Just as you had no power to be physically born, so you have no power to be spiritually born. "But God..."

 

[Silverhair]

But I am curious Silver Hair, do you hold to the position that the original sin of Adam did not taint human nature and that humans by divine grace have free will to achieve human perfection?

NO But I also do not hold to the errant idea that God controls all His creatures like puppets. God has given man a free will and as a result will be held responsible for the choices they make.

I do not hold to the errant views of the DoG or TULIP. Augustine brought pagan ideas into the church and Calvin carried them forward and they are held to this day by many in the church.

 

[Silverhair]

FYI… nobody on this board has indicated that….

except you. Your thinking process is erroneous.

You have the right to hold to whatever view you want even when it is wrong.