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Limited Free (Volitional) Will

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The idea we are free to choose from among available options is consistent with our experience. Scripture tells us God sometimes restricts our options, i.e. hardening the hearts of some such that they will reject the gospel, i.e. Romans 11.

"The absence of free will is, however, devastating to all theists since without it you cannot choose to be evil or good, and therefore deserve neither punishment nor salvation."​

So the complete absence of autonomous volitional will is irrational and unrestricted autonomous will is unbiblical. Some assert since we are free to choose among various sinful actions, but unable to choose the narrow path that leads to life, it makes sense for God to punish us for the sin we chose. Rational minds object.

We can harden our own hearts by the practice of sin. And God can harden hearts for His purpose, such as Romans 11. God can choose a person well on the way of hardening his own heart, and complete the process. Scripture does not rule any of the three out.

Some say whatsoever comes to pass is predestined to occur. Therefore God is the author of sin. Then some others say while it is true that God to be sovereign must predestine everything, that does not make God the author of sin. Rational minds object.

Why would God still blame us for our choices after He hardened our heart? My answer is He would not. But prior to that those hardened did make sinful choices, sealing their fate. The hardening, like physical death, simply ends the opportunity to obtain mercy. God, as the potter has the right to harden whoever He pleases.

Why would God do that, cut short the opportunity of some, and endure their hardened behavior? God did so to make known the riches of His glory (see Romans 9), including even us which He called not from Jews only but also from among Gentiles.

Our ability to make choices from among various options can be restricted by God for His purpose, thus the Biblical doctrine is "Limited Free (Volitional) Will."

Romans 9:16 teaches men can will and work to be saved, thus total spiritual inability as the result of the Fall is shown to be mistaken doctrine.

So when you see disputes raging over complete slavery to sin versus complete freedom of our will, consider that we are fallen and therefore predisposed to sin with a corrupt nature, but we are not so incapacitated as to not be responsible for our choices to reject Christ, or to not treat others as we would treat ourselves, because we have the capacity to accept Christ, and strive to do the will of God.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
1) Why did Jesus speak in parables in Matthew 13, if the lost could not hear and understand the milk of the gospel?

Answer Matthew 13 "10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?” 11 ]Jesus answered them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. 12 For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. 13 Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

Jesus spoke in parables without providing an explanation to prevent them from seeing, hearing and understanding. Thus they had some spiritual ability that had to be countered by using parables.

2) Why did God harden the hearts of the disbelieving Jews in Romans 11, if they were already unable to respond to the gospel.

Answer Romans 11 "
7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;
8 just as it is written,
“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes to see not and ears to hear not,
Down to this very day.”

9 And David says,
“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
And a stumbling block and a retribution to them.
10 “Let their eyes be darkened to see not,
And bend their backs forever.”

Scripture says God prevented the unbelieving Jews from seeing, hearing and understanding, which means they had that capacity before God hardened them.

Again, IMHO, it is obvious that Jesus spoke in parables and God hardened hearts to prevent the lost from using their limited free will to respond to the gospel.
 

DaveXR650

Well-Known Member
So when you see disputes raging over complete slavery to sin versus complete freedom of our will, consider that we are fallen and therefore predisposed to sin with a corrupt nature, but we are not so incapacitated as to not be responsible for our choices to reject Christ, or to not treat others as we would treat ourselves, because we have the capacity to accept Christ, and strive to do the will of God.
That statement is true. But when you say we have the ability to accept Christ and strive to do the will of God do you mean that you accept Christ, and then you are born again and with the new nature given you you can then strive to do the will of God? Or are you saying that, you can do all this on your own?
The Old Testament is a history of the Israelites making renewed promises to obey God and then failing to keep doing so. It's the same with individuals. You can quit a vice or a particular sin sometimes, and completely quit some sins for good. You can decide to endeavor to treat others nicely and with some success. But you will not do that sufficiently for salvation because, like you said, we are fallen and predisposed to sin and have a corrupt nature. Maybe you can realize this on your own and throw yourself on the mercy of Christ by faith but I question whether you would be inclined to do so because of the reasons you gave.

If your point is that it's possible with Calvinism to go so far with the idea of depravity that there is no point in reasoning with anyone until they are regenerated - well, we see that on here. But very few Calvinists preach that way so maybe that is the problem more so than the theology.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
That statement is true. But when you say we have the ability to accept Christ and strive to do the will of God do you mean that you accept Christ, and then you are born again and with the new nature given you you can then strive to do the will of God? Or are you saying that, you can do all this on your own?
The Old Testament is a history of the Israelites making renewed promises to obey God and then failing to keep doing so. It's the same with individuals. You can quit a vice or a particular sin sometimes, and completely quit some sins for good. You can decide to endeavor to treat others nicely and with some success. But you will not do that sufficiently for salvation because, like you said, we are fallen and predisposed to sin and have a corrupt nature. Maybe you can realize this on your own and throw yourself on the mercy of Christ by faith but I question whether you would be inclined to do so because of the reasons you gave.

If your point is that it's possible with Calvinism to go so far with the idea of depravity that there is no point in reasoning with anyone until they are regenerated - well, we see that on here. But very few Calvinists preach that way so maybe that is the problem more so than the theology.
I mean what I say, and not the words others put into my mouth.

1) Did I mean a person accepts Christ before they are regenerated, made alive, born anew? Yes
2) Can an unregenerate person strive to follow Christ and do as He commanded? Yes
3) Am I saying a person does all this one his own? Nope. No one puts their trust in Christ without first being "drawn" (attracted) by the Father.
4) Striving to follow Christ does not suggest the effort will always be successful.
5) Did I say striving to follow Christ can be done sufficiently to merit salvation? Nope
6) Since scripture is full of examples of people turning to Christ, to doubt this is so is a denial of God's word.
7) My points have nothing to do with the possible inability of some Calvinists to accept scripture.
8) I address the published positions of Calvinism, based on what God's word actually says.
 
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DaveXR650

Well-Known Member
I get tired of most of your replies immediately moving into some defensive, paranoid mode as if I was trying to accuse you of something instead of just having a conversation. Did I do anything other than trying to answer your post? No. Consider this my last communication with you as you seem to have some issues.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I get tired of most of your replies immediately moving into some defensive, paranoid mode as if I was trying to accuse you of something instead of just having a conversation. Did I do anything other than trying to answer your post? No. Consider this my last communication with you as you seem to have some issues.

1) Did I mean a person accepts Christ before they are regenerated, made alive, born anew? Yes
2) Can an unregenerate person strive to follow Christ and do as He commanded? Yes
3) Am I saying a person does all this one his own? Nope. No one puts their trust in Christ without first being "drawn" (attracted) by the Father.
4) Striving to follow Christ does not suggest the effort will always be successful.
5) Did I say striving to follow Christ can be done sufficiently to merit salvation? Nope
6) Since scripture is full of examples of people turning to Christ, to doubt this is so is a denial of God's word.
7) My points have nothing to do with the possible inability of some Calvinists to accept scripture.
8) I address the published positions of Calvinism, based on what God's word actually says.

So when you see disputes raging over complete slavery to sin versus complete freedom of our will, consider that we are fallen and therefore predisposed to sin with a corrupt nature, but we are not so incapacitated as to not be responsible for our choices to reject Christ, or to not treat others as we would treat ourselves, because we have the capacity to accept Christ, and strive to do the will of God.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Van

you are calling Gods Word untrue
Note, personal disparagement, but devoid of any actual evidence. This is what these people are all about.

Romans 9:16 says salvation is not dependent on the person who wills or does things, but instead it dependent on God alone. However, none of these naysayers, will explain how a person with "total spiritual inability" can "will" or work to be saved. So while they call God's word untrue, such as Romans 9:16, they try to hide their malfeasance by charging others with their actions.
 

Piper

Active Member
Site Supporter
Note, personal disparagement, but devoid of any actual evidence. This is what these people are all about.

Romans 9:16 says salvation is not dependent on the person who wills or does things, but instead it dependent on God alone. However, none of these naysayers, will explain how a person with "total spiritual inability" can "will" or work to be saved. So while they call God's word untrue, such as Romans 9:16, they try to hide their malfeasance by charging others with their actions.

That is not personal disparagement. It is a statement of actions that you are performing.

Personal disparagement is when one says to another, "You are a despicable human being," or "You are ugly."
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
That is not personal disparagement. It is a statement of actions that you are performing.

Personal disparagement is when one says to another, "You are a despicable human being," or "You are ugly."
Note the change of subject, and the continued fault finding? This is all they have. Was Romans 9:16 addressed? Nope

Claiming someone is calling God's word untrue is said to not be disparagement. There is no falsehood these posters will not post.
 
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