Just what is an "Independent Baptist church?"

I'd say it covers most of the bases.

In my area the Independent Baptist Churches are not buckling to "carnal attitudes" though, but perhaps they are in the author's area. If anything the Independent Baptist Churches seem to be becoming more dedicated to their Conservative stances as the world backslides into paganism.

One interesting change is that it seems Independent Baptist Churches here where I am are retaining the separation doctrine in regards to worldly things, but are enlarging fellowship with whom they mark as "brothers". I.E other Baptists. That's a move in the right direction IMO.

On a related note:
When I was going to college I was looking for a good solid IFB Church like I had at home. This was shortly after I was saved so I was still a new Christian. I saw one Church online that said "Independent Baptist" that was right on campus. I thought to myself "How great! I can just walk to Church". Well, I walked to the Church and Lo' and behold the woman pretending to be Pastor greeted me in her preaching robes. Needless to say I found a different IFB Church to attend.

 

To Salty: Thanks.

To the rest:
An Alan Gross Manifesto, as you may have guessed.

I am an independent Baptist, after all.

I wasn't familiar with David Cloud and thank you for turning me onto him and "the hundreds of articles at the Way of Life website."

I commend them for their idea and efforts to provide materials, etc.
We print a lot of tracks and books, too.

"Our primary goal with the FBIS is to provide material to assist preachers in the edification and protection of the churches."

I agree with the Brother who said,

“I believe your article is well done as you tackled a very difficult topic. If there is a Biblically solid Independent Baptist church in the area a believer lives in, he should pray for it daily and praise God for it.”

"The bottom line is that Independent Baptists are independent! Each gives account to its one head Jesus Christ. We have no desire to be independent of Him! Independent Baptists fellowship with other like-minded churches but they are not yoked together in any organizational sense with other Independent Baptists who might hold a different doctrine or practice."

This is quite a welcome welcome. I love it. More of us need to know what to answer and suggest counseling for anyone in the church they may attend.

"(If you are willing to make such a move and would like some counsel on where to go, we would be glad to try to help you. Just give write us an e-mail.)

I agree with what he said,

"The bottom line is that I don’t have to agree with most Independent Baptists. As an Independent Baptist, I have the liberty to fellowship with the 10% or whatever that I do agree with and ignore the rest! Independent Baptist is not a denomination."

Independent Baptists have never been a part of any larger group and are, therefore, not a 'division', or 'denomination' of anything.

The structure and organization of some Mission Boards can be an issue if they are in any way independent of the local church(es) and not under their direct authority (same with schools and colleges, etc.)

I haven't studied each one mentioned.

Independant Baptists are VERY Missionary, regardless.

We actually go to Public Schools during school hours and teach and preach the Bible. (One of our gals said, "If anybody says you came from a monkey they are lying", right in front of teachers and the Principal. They loved it).

He goes into the differences and says like "Some do" and others do something else. The others could be said to be ones we don't fellowship with, for Doctrinal reasons.

"There are debates and differences among Independent Baptists in such matters as music, dress standards, the Bible version-text issue, Calvinism, Baptist briderism,

"the practice of communion some closed (only church members can partake),

"alien immersion (only a “Baptist baptism” by their particular definition is authentic/ we don't accept Baptism from folks who have been dunked holding to the pseudo-Baptist position, or a "universal church" stance, which is the vast, overwhelming majority of professed "Christianity"),

"repentance and evangelistic practices (preaching repentance toward God of an individual's personal sins nailed to the cross and their faith in the Gospel, looking to Jesus as their Savior, for their personal sins/ with those two happening simultaneously).

Independent Baptists pertaining to pastoral authority ... one person = one vote... congregational and purely democratic, if you want to call that, as he does, "a much more humble and scriptural approach."

"There is variety among Independent Baptists pertaining to the definition of the church, with some holding to a “universal church” position and others holding to a “local church only” position.

"some holding to a “universal church” position" would not be considered for fellowship or as candidates for Baptism/ membership. They are welcome to attend and listen, peradventure, God teaches them His Book on it and "the ways of god more perfectly".

(Members holding this position would be considered practicing and promoting a non-Biblical heresy and promoting a 'schism' if they were to openly "contend" for this and be subject to church discipline.

1 Corinthians 12:25; “That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.”

(Members holding this position who held their peace to attend and listen would not be considered candidates for teaching or preaching, etc.)


Those of "...the vast majority rejects Calvinism entirely" would not be considered for fellowship or as candidates for Baptism/ membership. They are welcome to attend and listen, peradventure, God teaches them His Book on it and "the ways of god more perfectly".

(Members holding this position would be considered practicing and promoting a non-Biblical heresy and promoting a 'schism' if they were to openly "contend" for Arminianism, for example, and be subject to church discipline.

1 Corinthians 12:25; “That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.”

(Members holding this position who held their peace to attend and listen would not be considered candidates for teaching or preaching, etc.)


Those going with "...Quick Prayerism" would not be considered for fellowship or as candidates for Baptism/ membership. They are welcome to attend and listen, peradventure, God teaches them His Book on it and "the ways of god more perfectly".

(Members holding this position would be considered practicing and promoting a non-Biblical heresy and promoting a 'schism' if they were to openly "contend" for Arminianism, for example, and be subject to church discipline.

1 Corinthians 12:25; “That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.”

(Members holding this position, of "Easy Believism", for example, who held their peace to attend and listen would not be considered candidates for teaching or preaching, etc.)

We're not church Nazis. We love the Lord and strive for unity, in Christian love.



The "doctrine of separation from the world--modest apparel, warnings against unwholesome television, movies, and pop music, no drinking, smoking, gambling,

are very important to us, and The Lord we believe, although they are not harped on or mentioned very often (you'd be surprised how little), and they can be presented in a Non-Legalistic way. My pastor does. He's amazing. God's man.

Scripture is enough to teach a clean walk. 1 John 3:3 "And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure."

This is good, "holding to the King James Bible as an accurate and lovely translation of the preserved Greek and Hebrew texts"

In no way do we have "a more tolerant New Evangelical outlook and an affinity toward “conservative evangelicals.”

They are preached AGAINST, with the Book.


"What a church is, from what we understand the Bible teaches, is one of the biggest deals we see in worshipping God, as Independant Baptists, "Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen." Ephesians 3:21.

To us, all of the above that mentions, "Baptist", could say, "Christianity".

We are not trying to be or do something special and separate in and of ourselves.

We believe we are practicing Christianity.

con't

 

What he says about what a church is, is good.

The last thing he says is what we do
and it is the only institution on earth with the authority to do so.


From their Statement of Faith

THE CHURCH (by which they mean any given church that is 'B&M', so to speak/ local, not the 'B&M' building, but the people that have covenanted together, to assemble, is what a church is, from the Bible.

"one body", in the same sense as "one baptism", i.e.,

there are many separate "baptisms" that take place,
as to "kind" = One "kind" of baptism.

There is not one big universal invisible baptism(?)

Thus, we have many "bodies", which are local churches/ "bodies", as to "kind".

There is one "kind" of body is what "one body" is saying.

That is the only thing we understand that Jesus would say a 'church' is.

"one body", in the same sense as "one baptism").

"We believe that the church on earth is a congregation of scripturally baptized believers bound together by a common New Testament faith and fellowship in the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

"The church (as to "kind") was established and built by Jesus Christ (Mat. 16:18).

"The church (as to "kind") is the pillar and ground of the truth (1 Tim. 3:15).

"Each church is autonomous (self-governing, self-disciplining, self-supporting, self-propagating) and stands on its own feet under its one Head Jesus Christ, which is what we see in Acts and the Epistles.

"Its officers are pastors (also called elders and bishops) and deacons (1 Tim. 3). Its two ordinances are baptism and the Lord’s Supper, which are performed as memorials of Christ’s death and resurrection (Acts 2:41-42; 1 Cor. 11:23-24).

"Baptism is for believers only and is by immersion and is called a burial (Rom. 6:1-4).

"It is not for salvation and is not a part of salvation but follows after salvation as a public testimony thereof and as a picture of the believer’s death, burial, and resurrection with Christ (Acts 8:36-39; 16:30-33; 18:8).

"Baptism is not the gospel but is a picture of the gospel, being the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ for our sins (1 Cor. 1:17; 15:1-4).

"The church’s (as to "kind") sole authority is the Bible (2 Tim. 3:16-17).

"Its Great Commission is the work of world evangelism and discipleship (Mat. 28:18-20; Acts 1:8; 13:1-4)."

 

I have no idea. We are independent, as in the following definition.

And we believe all assemblies should be independent, as defined, otherwise the Headship of Jesus is usurped.

...

Just from a purely empirical perspective, we have found that the number of false professions among children this young compared to that of adults results in the percentage proving to always be nearly the same +/- (in the percentage of each group that later professes they weren't saved, but now are.)

The saved 5-year-old has one vote.

Females that are members in good standing have one vote.

Brother David Cloud used the words, "like-minded", which to us, historically, would mean a church of "like faith and order", called at times in our history, “regular church order” or such synonymous phrases as “binding church order” or “gospel church order” etc.

Extraordinary work was done here by Mark Fenison (God gave him a good mind).
https://files.secure.website/wscfus/3107401/uploads/The_Great_Commission_Credentials.pdf

From his second and third goals for writing that book;

Br. Fenison says "New churches do not evolve but are made by this process. The constitution process is administered under the authority of an existing New Testament Church and/or its ordained representatives.

"Third, it is to demonstrate from credible sources of history that both English and American Particular Baptists understood the Great Commission belonged exclusively to the visible gospel church of Christ, and they applied it as such in their practice. This practice was denoted by such terms as “regular church order” or such synonymous phrases as “binding church order” or “gospel church order” etc. Not only did these phrases make it evident that they believed the Great Commission was given to the church alone but they repeatedly denied that it belonged to anyone but the New Testament gospel church.

"Like faith and order" would include the following and comes from other churches that were properly structured according to the New Testament and have been carrying out the Great Commission.

We exalt Jesus as the Head of every independent church of "like faith and order".
Elders ruled, Mission Boards, Associations, Conventions, One-World visible or (incredibly) invisible things called 'churches', etc., do not have Jesus as their Head.

Our faith is in Jesus, alone.

The Bible is sufficient for all faith and practice.

Baptism is symbolic, only.

The Lord's Supper is closed to members in good standing (we don't know what standing non-members have, if any).

The Priesthood of the believer.

Autonomous congregational and democratic government.

Two offices (call them what you may) to serve.

Soul Liberty.

When we find these things present in an organized congregation, we find a "like faith and order" church assembly.
...

I had to look this up. Thank you.

Sounds like the makings of a major split to me.

What do the churches believe that the person is coming from that we are agreeing with? What do they teach for salvation? Common Grace over an infant they 'baptize'? Did they dunk them? That salvation saves?, etc. etc.

Tom Ross, whom I have known since Hector was a pup, makes no bones about the importance of not accepting alien baptism. Good to peruse and/or an easy read.

"Resetting an Old Landmark" by Tom Ross;
"Remove not the ancient landmark,
which thy fathers have set" (Prov. 22:28).
"One Lord, one faith, one baptism" (Eph. 4:5).
Because of error, laxness, compromise, and liberalism, it has always been the responsibility of Baptists to restate what they have believed through the ages."

Where do think Baptist-like assemblies of baptized believers came from (down through the ages, by the tens of millions? 50 million people, or twice that, were tortured to death and executed during the middle ages. How many of those were Baptist-like martyrs?

Jesus is the Savior. Baptism has nothing to do with salvation.

As we have mentioned, we go with four requirements for scriptural baptism.
1. candidate. Saved.
2. reason. To picture, only, what Jesus did for them.
3. method. Immersion to picture burial and resurrection.
4. authority. A "like faith and order" congregation of scripturally baptized believers.

con't

 

There is no telling what someone may come up with that they believe that we would take exception to, but like you say; only if they make it an issue/ with regard to membership, teaching or preaching, etc.

Lots of nutty things come out every day. Some on the BB!!!

The divisions I mentioned that would create a division;

...

My interview was 30 minutes because I came from a like faith and order, sister church, where A.) I learned the Truth and B.) they knew the Truth had been taught. We went over things from my profession of an experience of salvation to amillennialism, but he just forgot about the seven days of creation, until the end.

If new people say, "I can teach your people the errors of the KJV or silliness of Landmarkism", the pastor will let them know that he and the church members are not going to change and they need to assemble with some other group. He's done it.

Lots of error tries to creep in. Leaven. Not good.

There are major points of agreement we need to have with them, for unity.

Within our congregation, there are many different views on certain things. For example, I am Ahmillial and they have not be blessed to grasp it, yet. I don't cause a ruckuss over it, ether, or any of the rest of us. Some of us, from the same Baptist grade school and Baptist college, may differ on certain things, etc.

Terms can come about with usage, but that usage is going to have to be by someone else. Our church was independent 230-something years ago when it was founded, and the church before her was independent, etc.

This one, like with money, is what I am saying, as you know.

Usage may have been at play for this definition to come about. People just like to call things certain things and Satan certainly causes confusion with language whenever he can.

The church members.

The pastor gets one vote and ours has been voted down on the color of the counter in the serving hall.

One teacher I had in college piped off at his church, like he'd heard more settled and seasoned preachers say, to the effect that "if you don't like it, vote me out".

The deacons called the church to order and the members voted him out within minutes.....

We are very weary at the prospect of a preacher "lording it over God's heritage", etc.

Br. Cloud used the words "pastorial authority" in his paragragh introduction. "There is variety among Independent Baptists pertaining to pastoral authority, with some holding to a lordly dictatorial style, requiring “unquestioning loyalty” of the people, while others hold to a much more humble and scriptural approach."

Above. "Pastorial authority" as his wording and not meaning "holding to a lordly dictatorial style, requiring “unquestioning loyalty” of the people", in any respect.

The pastor does have latitude in many areas to make decisions using his judgment. He asked me if I needed money for food and things for the homeless, because he said, "My wife prints it". (there are four homeless folks in my home at this second, cleaning themselves, getting clean clothes, eating, using a phone, making preparation for obtaining their I.D.s or license, having an address for jobs and various things to be mailed here, etc., etc.)

He is not our whipping boy.

The pastoral authority does not overrule the church members unless he can come up with enough votes. As above, there are things like that where a vote in his favor may have already taken place, and/or he would bring it up with the men in prayer meetings and see what the mind of the men is, under The Lordship of Jesus, and go from there, in prayer. Or, his wife could just print the money.

O.K.

O.K. ( I won't ask what the teach on salvation or other essentials).

The scripture is Acts 11:26; "And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch."

Christians are going to gravitate toward a Christian version of the Bible, aren't they? Why would they think a 'bible version' that leaves out I John 5:7 is for them? And practically, ad infinitum from there?

I'm not tellin'. Forget I said that. It's a source of confusion and for me embarrassment.

Br. Clouds words were "officers". Jesus is in the office of Mediator and is a Ministering Servant, so the word doesn't need to be a hangup. It just means, "role". Two "roles" that ministering saints fill.

10,000 characters per post. It's all good.

 

A friend of mine who has taught in an Independent Baptist College and Seminary for many years did his PhD dissertation on this question. The sine que non of the definition is ecclesiastical separation, as he defines it. Yes, there are differences, but what sets IFB apart from Southern Baptist is that they separate from those who have departed from the faith. Ernest Pickering wrote the seminal work on this called "Biblical Separation: The Struggle for Pure Church"
Biblical Separation: The Struggle for a... book by Ernest D. Pickering

My friend wrote this:
A Theology of Separation | Maranatha Baptist Seminary

 

PIPER! How could you!!

 

And remember, the idea of separation can be with the party remaining the same staying put and the other one leaving.

A properly structured church is going to be autonomous (self-governing, self-disciplining, self-supporting, self-propagating) and stands on its own feet under its one Head Jesus Christ, to start with, which is what we see in Acts and the Epistles.

"They went out from among us..."

Where the IFB stays put and another group separates and becomes something different.

That has happened from the time those left the faith to begin the forming of the Catholic Church*, to the 1800s with three major 'attacks', here in and around Kentucky, sent some splitting off of IFBs and forming groups with beliefs that had never existed before, to today, we have had to break fellowship with some sister churches accepting members and their baptism when they were under discipline from our church, for whatever reason. People are allowed to do what they want with their church and the people can do whatever they are allowed to do, but church discipline was put there for a reason, just like baptism and the Lord's Supper (closed communion), to protect the churches.

*Baptist History Notebook
Chapter 2, pg 9
JESUS ESTABLISHES HIS CHURCH

1. Church Government Changed

"In developing his church Satan began by corrupting the doctrinal teachings of the Lord's church from within. He has his servants in all churches. The first corruption came in his seeking to change the form of church government that Christ gave. His subtility is seen in this.

"There was a plurality of elders (preachers) in the early churches. "And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church" (Acts 20:17). It seems that today we have a scarcity of preachers but not then.

"These elders were to be equal, one was not to lord it over another. "The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder. . . . Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; Neither as being lords over

[p. 10]
"God's heritage (clergy), but being ensamples to the flock" (I Peter 5:1-3). See our Lord's instruction on equality (Matthew 23:1-12).

"Early in history Satan led some away from that truth. Diotrephes is an example given in III John 9. We read in Revelation 2:15, "So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolatians, which thing I hate." Without being positive what this doctrine was, I think the meaning lies in the name.

"It comes from two Greek words. The first is nikaw which means "to conquer." The second is laos which means "people." So then it means to conquer the people or laity.

"Thus we have a ruling clergy. Thus developed an episcopal church government in place of a congregational one. What kind of government is this? "Episcopacy, Episcopal."

"These terms are derived from the Greek episcopos, meaning 'bishop.' They refer accordingly to that system of church government in which the principal officer is the bishop."1 Baker's Dictionary of Theology, page 184 - Article by Leon Morris.

Nice article by Br. Larry Oats!

 

your one question was "does this cover all the bases?" On one hand, I do not believe that the article does. But he has a lot of good stuff that describes IFB churches, and in one sense, if you call yourself an IFb, you are an IFB. So, on the other hand, yes.

 

You're some kind of baptist.