Featured Puritanism

Calvin was a lawyer, not a priest.

 

I stand corrected. I guess I still like him. I don't know!

 

Dave, I’m only giving correction because Calvin never went the priestly route that Luther did… and neither payed the ultimate price that Huss did. FYI, I like all of these guys including MLJ, Pink, Sinclair Ferguson, George Whitfield, and New Jersey’s own Albert Martin.

 

Well if God designed an atonement for everyone, wouldn’t that make that a universal atonement… and so, does everyone go to heaven… certainly not! In reality then, wouldn’t the term “Limited Atonement” be better served to address the Universalists doctrine?

My understanding when addressing DOG/Tulip doctrine is that “A Particular Atonement” more accurately represents their Calvinist beliefs.

 

I'm glad you do. Seriously. But this thread which I thought was going to be some light hearted fun (at the Puritan lack of fun) somehow turned into a real slam on them. MLJ, Sinclair Ferguson, and George Whitfield loved the Puritans.

Fortunately, if you have time, the sermon by Spurgeon is still up in the Spurgeon Archive. It's sermon 393, written in 1861. You would get the impression that it was about the true abusive nature of Puritanism unless you already knew Spurgeon's views of the Puritans. In that case you might go read it. And you will find that it is about suffering and staying strong even in bad times. In Spurgeon's way, and one of the reasons people respect him, he didn't overlook his own camp when pointing out persecution. But there is far more in that sermon than Puritan persecution, including the persecution they received in England and Bunyan specifically is mentioned by name. That sermon has far more praise for Puritans than criticism and it could be misleading to pull one quote out of it.

It is worth reading just to see how broad minded Spurgeon was as he praises Puritans, Quakers, Baptists and Anabaptists, anyone who actually follows and loves Christ. Spurgeon had used the story of the Baptists in New England to show what persecution does. By 1861 the Baptists had become the largest group in America.

 

If it has not been already mentioned in this thread, Roger Williams was a Purtian minister turned Baptist.
Roger Williams - Wikipedia

 

If you think you can get way with ambiguous deflections, you have another think coming.
Your doctrine says only the elect will listen, so to tell those who will listen, that Christ died for them is a dodge.
I make no mistake when I present the TULIP decoded, rather than encoded.
I did not "set up" a scenario present in published doctrines.
You do state generalities as if they applied. Obfuscation on display.
I never mentioned "Owen" or "high Calvinists" nor do I make up misrepresentations.

That Sir, is your bag.

In summary here is the "decoded" TULIP.
T = total spiritual inability, no capacity to seek God or trust in Christ.
U = Unconditional Election, God chose individuals before creation not based on any of their characteristics.
L = Limited Atonement, Christ provides salvation only for supposedly previously chosen elect individuals.
I = Irresistible Grace, God alters and enables the elect to seek God and trust in Christ.
P= Once saved, always saved.

God's word says the lost seek God.
God's word says everyone believing into Him shall not perish, but have eternal life, thus salvation is conditional.
God's word says Christ became the means of reconciliation for the whole world, all of humanity.
God's word says God credits our faith, rather than instilling righteous faith.
God's word says once saved, always saved, for we shall never perish.

 

The one thing I think you can learn from them is that anytime you go against what Jesus said in that "My kingdom is not of this world" and try to make if of this world a couple of things happen. One is that you find that the methods of earthly power will not work to enforce spiritual life and health in people. Secondly, humans recognize universally the advantages of power and inevitably when a church gets real political power the more cunning and those with dominate personalities rise to the top and you will end up with corrupt, even evil leadership. This happened with the Catholic church and it happens with all groups that mesh civil and religious authority too much. From the cruel shunning of some Amish and Mennonite groups to the Puritans, it even happens when some Christian leader buys a tract of land and thinks he's going to build a "Christian" community. It will always end in failure.

We can't act smug either in our enlightened days. We have not figured out how to keep our congregations from being corrupted yet always be inviting of those who might become believers. We mess up all the time in "church discipline". Should we even have such a thing? How do we get along with other denominations. When do you break fellowship? So far we haven't starting hurting each other but sometimes I wonder if we are really more enlightened or just less direct.

 

Of course I can get away with it. Calvin, Owen, Bonar, Spurgeon, Ryle and everybody else gets away with it. If you can't discuss what people really are saying fine. Maybe you aren't up to it. But stop trying to redefine what someone else HAS to believe in your mind and then refuting that. If you want to disagree or ask why I believe what I believe the we can talk. But YOU do not define what my "bag" is. What is the matter with you? Why don't you go off and start your own thread where you brilliantly destroy the truth of your own "decoded" T.U.L.I.P. But please put me on ignore first.

 

Just a quick not on "Roger Williams.

He was not banned because he rejected infant baptism. He taught the native peoples should be treated justly and not with deception, such as worthless exchange for their land. He pushed for the separation of church and state.

Williams' defense of the Native Americans, his accusations that Puritans had reproduced the "evils" of the Anglican Church, and his insistence that England pay the Native Americans for their land all put him at the center of many political debates during his life. He was considered an important historical figure of religious liberty at the time of American independence, and he was a key influence on the thinking of the Founding Fathers.​

 

Another total deflection, addressing me and not the TULIP. This is all they have, folks, falsehoods defended with falsehoods.

In summary here is the "decoded" TULIP.
T = total spiritual inability, no capacity to seek God or trust in Christ.
U = Unconditional Election, God chose individuals before creation not based on any of their characteristics.
L = Limited Atonement, Christ provides salvation only for supposedly previously chosen elect individuals.
I = Irresistible Grace, God alters and enables the elect to seek God and trust in Christ.
P= Once saved, always saved.

God's word says the lost seek God.
God's word says everyone believing into Him shall not perish, but have eternal life, thus salvation is conditional.
God's word says Christ became the means of reconciliation for the whole world, all of humanity.
God's word says God credits our faith, rather than instilling righteous faith.
God's word says once saved, always saved, for we shall never perish.

 

Well, I think that there were a lot of things about the first generation Pilgrims and Puritan groups in New England that would make it quite possible to end up with excesses that they may have gotten from Old Testament stories of the Israelites. I'm just guessing but you have a group of people in a wilderness they have no idea how to survive in and a belief that they are especially chosen and will be kept as long as they stay true. When half of you are in a state of starvation and there is a massive dark continent before you and you don't have so much as a flashlight I can see where the discovery of witchcraft going on could cause a violent reaction. Same with someone who causes division in you church and then has a baby stillborn that word goes around it was a "monster". I'm not excusing them but just saying that then you read where Achan's whole family needed to be killed, with the belief and community system they had, along with the stress they were under - well, I like to think I would have been above it and would have tried to stop it, but I honestly don't know.

 

Yeah, baby.