Was Roger Williams a (real) Baptist?

[Alan Gross]

The Baptist of old also have held that baptism must be by a proper authority on a proper or qualified convert in a proper manner

You got it right.

We would include a fourth requirement and say, "for the right reason", i.e., only to picture what the Lord has done for them, in His death, burial, and resurrection.

So, for a SCRIPTURAL BAPTISM we'd have:

1.) baptism must be by a proper authority

2.) on a proper or qualified convert

3.) for the right reason (as a picture, only)

4.) in a proper manner (immersion).

I am a 'Baptist of old'.

I am a child of the flames (martyrdom by being burned at the stake, along with many other torturings and methods of death).

This is a Baptist of old. 1hr and a half, but worth any minutes you can give to him. I knew long before he passed and heard him give messages many times.

 

[JonC]

You appear to read a lot about Baptist history which many of our brethren are unaware. It was my understanding that Williams left the Baptist ranks. The article I read many years ago denied that the assembly that Williams started was Baptist in nature. There are other articles that may be to the contrary.

Just because someone teaches believer's baptism does not qualify them as a Baptist.

The Baptist of old also have held that baptism must be by a proper authority on a proper or qualified convert in a proper manner

I find it hard to believe that a true Baptist will leave the ranks and seek Christ or God through some other.means if that is what is implied by being a seeker.

There are several distinctives.

I think we usually get on believers baptism because of Alexander Campbell's influences.

"Proper authority"isn't a Baptist distinctive. For example, if you are baptized by a pastor of a proper church (whatever one thinks that to be) and the pastor is actually saved decades later (this actually happens) - were you properly baptized? What if that pastor never was saved and becomes a Mormon? I mean, you were baptized by a lost sinner who was an enemy if God.

Scripture implies, I believe, that a Christian baptize.

 

[JonC]

Do we want to honor Benedict Arnold as a great American - if he really wasnt?

But he was.....until he wasn't.

 

[Alan Gross]

"Proper authority"isn't a Baptist distinctive.

1 And it came to pass, that on one of those days, as he taught the people in the temple, and preached the gospel, the chief priests and the scribes came upon him with the elders,

2 And spake unto him, saying, Tell us, by what authority doest thou these things? or who is he that gave thee this authority?

3 And he answered and said unto them, I will also ask you one thing; and answer me:

4 The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men?

5 And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say, Why then believed ye him not?

6 But and if we say, Of men; all the people will stone us: for they be persuaded that John was a prophet.

7 And they answered, that they could not tell whence it was.

8 And Jesus said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things. Luke 20:1-8

Jesus equated His Authority to minister
"by what authority I do these things"

and John the Baptist's Authority to baptize,
"The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men?"

as both being directly from God the Father's Authority "by what authority doest thou these things?"


6 There was a man sent from God,
whose name was John. John1:6.

John the Baptist was sent from God, by God's Authority.


33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.
John1:33-34 (same chapter).

God sent John the Baptist, by God's Authority, to baptise those who were saved under the preaching of the Gospel.


29 And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.

All of the individual people in The New Testament were baptized by the Authority of God, through John the Baptist, or by the Authority of the churches, whose members had received John's baptism, and their authorized delegates.

All who were saved in The New Testament were baptized by the Authority of God, through John's Baptism.

30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.
Luke 27:29-30.

By not being baptized by John the Baptist, the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God...

And that rejection of the counsel of God was against themselves, then, just as it is against all those who reject the counsel of God, by not following the Lord Jesus and being scripturally baptized, by the Authority of God.

Being scripturally baptized, by the Authority of God, is an integral portion of the counsel of God and, therefore a Baptist distinctive.


13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan* unto John, to be baptized of him.

14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?

15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness.


Jesus walked *160 miles(?), Galilee to Jordan, to be baptized by John's Authority, "to fulfill all righteousness".

It is, then, becoming for us to be baptized by the Authority of God to fulfill righteousness.


26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.

27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.

Baptists, including myself, declare the Manifold Wisdom and Whole Counsel of God, as members of one of Jesus' Divinely Originated local called-out assemblies, which have been, are, and will be "the pillars and ground of the truth" until Jesus comes in His second advent to Earth.

28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. Acts 20:26-28

"the church of God" is spoken of referring to "the church" as a Divinely Origination Organization.

Where you find a true church of the Lord Jesus you find a local called-out assembly.

By dropping the "the" in front of "church", here, as with any other words in this usage, "the church" is equivalent to, "churches".

Re-reading with that in mind may make it more easily understood, i.e., "to feed ... churches of God".

"the church of God" mentioned here is a flock, as in vs 28a, i.e., "to all the flock"...

...and each flock, or local called-out church assembly, has a primarily a regenerate membership, which is the meaning of vs 28d "which he hath purchased with his own blood", by which, Jesus is said to have Bought each individual local call-out church assembly, who He drew together by the Holy Spirit to be Baptized into one of His Habitations of God through the Spirit, to bring His Glory and to be a witness as one of His many Candlesticks.


Baptist's lineage goes back to the Baptism of John the Baptist, by the Authority of God The Father, and the time of Jesus Christ Divinely Originating His local called-out assemblies, called churches in the KJV.

Authority in baptism is a Historical Baptist distinctive throughout Biblical Baptist History and The History of Christianity, which are the same thing.

So, for a SCRIPTURAL BAPTISM we'd have:

1.) baptism must be by a proper authority

2.) on a proper or qualified convert

3.) for the right reason (as a picture, only)

4.) in a proper manner (immersion).

see: Authority in the Baptism,
A Sermon by Rosco Brong.

 

[JonC]

1 And it came to pass, that on one of those days, as he taught the people in the temple, and preached the gospel, the chief priests and the scribes came upon him with the elders,

2 And spake unto him, saying, Tell us, by what authority doest thou these things? or who is he that gave thee this authority?

3 And he answered and said unto them, I will also ask you one thing; and answer me:

4 The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men?

5 And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say, Why then believed ye him not?

6 But and if we say, Of men; all the people will stone us: for they be persuaded that John was a prophet.

7 And they answered, that they could not tell whence it was.

8 And Jesus said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things. Luke 20:1-8

Jesus equated His Authority to minister
"by what authority I do these things"

and John the Baptist's Authority to baptize,
"The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men?"

as both being directly from God the Father's Authority "by what authority doest thou these things?"


6 There was a man sent from God,
whose name was John. John1:6.

John the Baptist was sent from God, by God's Authority.


33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.
John1:33-34 (same chapter).

God sent John the Baptist, by God's Authority, to baptise those who were saved under the preaching of the Gospel.


29 And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.

All of the individual people in The New Testament were baptized by the Authority of God, through John the Baptist, or by the Authority of the churches, whose members had received John's baptism, and their authorized delegates.

All who were saved in The New Testament were baptized by the Authority of God, through John's Baptism.

30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.
Luke 27:29-30.

By not being baptized by John the Baptist, the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God...

And that rejection of the counsel of God was against themselves, then, just as it is against all those who reject the counsel of God, by not following the Lord Jesus and being scripturally baptized, by the Authority of God.

Being scripturally baptized, by the Authority of God, is an integral portion of the counsel of God and, therefore a Baptist distinctive.


13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan* unto John, to be baptized of him.

14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?

15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness.


Jesus walked *160 miles(?), Galilee to Jordan, to be baptized by John's Authority, "to fulfill all righteousness".

It is, then, becoming for us to be baptized by the Authority of God to fulfill righteousness.


26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.

27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.

Baptists, including myself, declare the Manifold Wisdom and Whole Counsel of God, as members of one of Jesus' Divinely Originated local called-out assemblies, which have been, are, and will be "the pillars and ground of the truth" until Jesus comes in His second advent to Earth.

28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. Acts 20:26-28

"the church of God" is spoken of referring to "the church" as a Divinely Origination Organization.

Where you find a true church of the Lord Jesus you find a local called-out assembly.

By dropping the "the" in front of "church", here, as with any other words in this usage, "the church" is equivalent to, "churches".

Re-reading with that in mind may make it more easily understood, i.e., "to feed ... churches of God".

"the church of God" mentioned here is a flock, as in vs 28a, i.e., "to all the flock"...

...and each flock, or local called-out church assembly, has a primarily a regenerate membership, which is the meaning of vs 28d "which he hath purchased with his own blood", by which, Jesus is said to have Bought each individual local call-out church assembly, who He drew together by the Holy Spirit to be Baptized into one of His Habitations of God through the Spirit, to bring His Glory and to be a witness as one of His many Candlesticks.


Baptist's lineage goes back to the Baptism of John the Baptist, by the Authority of God The Father, and the time of Jesus Christ Divinely Originating His local called-out assemblies, called churches in the KJV.

Authority in baptism is a Historical Baptist distinctive throughout Biblical Baptist History and The History of Christianity, which are the same thing.



see: Authority in the Baptism,
A Sermon by Rosco Brong.

The issue with those passages is that we are not baptized into the baptism of John.

Also, I'm just saying that baptismal authority is not a Baptist distinctive. It may be a distinctive for some Baptist churches, but it isn't a Baptist distinctive (for example, Catholics and Presbyterians also hold to baptismal authority).