Now you’ve done it
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Exactaly where in the Bible.....
- Thread starter Salty
- Start date
thanks
I have isolated the doctrine that I would like to comment on now.
Consider a few verses first.
Eph 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: (you-ward in this context is gentile-ward -1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles )
Ro 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
The office of apostle to the gentiles is limited to one man ever. He was not even saved until AD 37/38.
He was separate from the other apostles who were sent to the circumcision (Israel)
Ga 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles)
9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
One more: And please do not just read these words but consider what they say and to whom they are spoken.
Ro 15:14 And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren (the Romans Christians who are gentiles), that ye also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another.
15 Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God,
16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
17 I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus Christ in those things which pertain to God.
18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,
I said all that to bring verse 18 to your attention. The gentiles have never had instruction from God in how to act and what to do to please him. But now in AD 58 when this letter was written, God is using Paul with apostolic authority to address gentiles and instruct them what to do.
Here is the kicker. Paul wrote 13 letters to gentiles and never one time instructed any gentile to tithe. He neve even used the word tithe in any of his letter to gentiles. This is significant and this presentation should be enough to convince anyone who is not sure if God has commanded the gentiles to tithe. I wonder if it will.
I must have missed the apology, and found stereotype thinking being exulted.
You know that the old Westminster Theologian Murray believed so strongly in alcoholic wine in Communion that he would call people out for this error, as he called it.
I did not apologize and I do not know anything about your stereotypical thinking, but did you see and comprehend the logic of the verses I quoted in post #24? I ask this of you because you had nothing to say about the tithe. It is obvious God did not begin saving gentiles in the historical record to put them under the law of Moses, and since that was all the scripture that was written, it is logical that God had to write some things that would apply to gentiles and it had to be under no less authority than an apostle, marked out and chosen by the Lord Jesus Christ. So, Paul is the chosen man and he writes 13 letters to us telling us what to do and how to act.
Does this make sense to you?
Ac 14:24 And after they had passed throughout Pisidia, they came to Pamphylia.
25 And when they had preached the word in Perga, they went down into Attalia:
26 And thence sailed to Antioch, from whence they had been recommended to the grace of God for the work which they fulfilled.
27 And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles.
Ac 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
Now for the man who had been given the keys to open the door of faith to gentiles (Matt 16:.19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven) He is getting ready to speak.
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago (in Acts 10 - 40 AD) God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
Note here about V 12 and why apostolic miracles) - 1Co 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: - 1Co 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, - Mr 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
The Lord working miracles through his apostles confirmed that God was the author of giving the gospel to gentiles)
You might as well read what James said about it;
Ac 15:13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
So, the scripture says to teach the law of Moses as a commandment is a subversion of the gospel of Jesus Christ. This would include the tithe.
Paul addresses giving in light of the gospel and the gentiles in 2 Cor 8-9. He instructs us in word and deed. Give liberally but from the heart.
Does this just make good sense? Isn't it just plain logic? Who can argue with this biblical logic?
- 1) No need for me to present the verses that demonstrate both views (C are unbiblical yet again. No one ever actually discusses these truths.
2) Our communion should be open to all professing Christians, whether in reality wheat or tares, as Paul says we should take that opportunity to evaluate ourselves to see if we are "of the faith." 2 Cor. 13:5
2 Corinthians 13:5
Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test?
3) Single Pastor or Elder led congregation. Each local assembly should be led by several Elders (leaders) Titus 1:
God's plan for our lives. Romans 14:5-9
- 5) I do not believe the bible specifically tells us whether God created everything in 6 24 hour days, or 6 indeterminate intervals of time. The Hebrew word translated "day" is used for both meanings. OTOH, Job 38 clearly teaches we were not there and therefore do not know.
- 6) Pre-trib vs mid trib vs post trib:
And we can toss in "pre-wrath" for when scripture teaches Christ from the clouds will snatch up His chosen ones.
Matthew 24:22
“And if those days had not been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the chosen ones those days will be cut short.
"Those days" appears to refer to the Great Tribulation. Thus before that period ends, (or is expected to end) many believe the church will be raptured. And scripture is also clear we do not now know when it will occur, but we should live as if it is imminent.
As you are probably aware, many scholars have come to very different conclusions, ie cut short means the rapture occurs before or during or when the Great Tribulation is prematurely ended. I will stick with we do not know so we should stay prepared.
- 7) Should we "tithe?" The New Testament indicates we should prayerfully decide what we can give to our Lord, without any specific amount such as 10% (or 23%) as required under the Old Covenant.
2 Corinthians 9:6-7
Now I say this: the one who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and the one who sows generously will also reap generously.
Each one must do just as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.
The preserved Scriptures in the original language are a more ancient landmark than the 1611 KJV.
The 1560 Geneva Bible is a more ancient landmark than the later 1611 KJV. For many English-speaking believers, the Geneva Bible was the loved, believed, accepted, read, and preached English Bible translation for around 100 years.
The 1611 edition of the KJV would be a more ancient landmark than present post-1900 editions of the KJV, but most KJV-only advocates use the less ancient post-1900 editions.
1) No need for me to present the verses that demonstrate both views (C & A are unbiblical yet again. No one ever actually discusses these truths.
2) Our communion should be open to all professing Christians, whether in reality wheat or tares, as Paul says we should take that opportunity to evaluate ourselves to see if we are "of the faith." 2 Cor. 13:5
2 Corinthians 13:5
Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test?
3) Single Pastor or Elder led congregation. Each local assembly should be led by several Elders (leaders) Titus 1:
4) Christ arose on Sunday, not Saturday. So we Christians should gather on Sunday and at other times as we follow
God's plan for our lives. Romans 14:5-9
5) I do not believe the bible specifically tells us whether God created everything in 6 24 hour days, or 6 indeterminate intervals of time. The Hebrew word translated "day" is used for both meanings. OTOH, Job 38 clearly teaches we were not there and therefore do not know.
6) There is no basis for forming cults based on the clever stories of men in scripture. In fact the NT teaches that the powers that were in charge suppressed God's gospel of good news, manufacturing all sorts of falsehoods to condemn Christ and His disciples. The KJV was used by God to carry His word to many English speaking people over hundreds of years. But our language has changed and so we need words and phrased of today to convey God's word today.
7) Pre-trib vs mid trib vs post trib:
And we can toss in "pre-wrath" for when scripture teaches Christ from the clouds will snatch up His chosen ones.
Matthew 24:22
“And if those days had not been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the chosen ones those days will be cut short.
"Those days" appears to refer to the Great Tribulation. Thus before that period ends, (or is expected to end) many believe the church will be raptured. And scripture is also clear we do not now know when it will occur, but we should live as if it is imminent.
As you are probably aware, many scholars have come to very different conclusions, ie cut short means the rapture occurs before or during or when the Great Tribulation is prematurely ended. I will stick with we do not know so we should stay prepared.
8) Should we "tithe?" The New Testament indicates we should prayerfully decide what we can give to our Lord, without any specific amount such as 10% (or 23%) as required under the Old Covenant.
2 Corinthians 9:6-7
Now I say this: the one who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and the one who sows generously will also reap generously. Each one must do just as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.
2) Our communion should be open to all professing Christians, whether in reality wheat or tares, as Paul says we should take that opportunity to evaluate ourselves to see if we are "of the faith." 2 Cor. 13:5
2 Corinthians 13:5
Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test?
3) Single Pastor or Elder led congregation. Each local assembly should be led by several Elders (leaders) Titus 1:
4) Christ arose on Sunday, not Saturday. So we Christians should gather on Sunday and at other times as we follow
God's plan for our lives. Romans 14:5-9
5) I do not believe the bible specifically tells us whether God created everything in 6 24 hour days, or 6 indeterminate intervals of time. The Hebrew word translated "day" is used for both meanings. OTOH, Job 38 clearly teaches we were not there and therefore do not know.
6) There is no basis for forming cults based on the clever stories of men in scripture. In fact the NT teaches that the powers that were in charge suppressed God's gospel of good news, manufacturing all sorts of falsehoods to condemn Christ and His disciples. The KJV was used by God to carry His word to many English speaking people over hundreds of years. But our language has changed and so we need words and phrased of today to convey God's word today.
7) Pre-trib vs mid trib vs post trib:
And we can toss in "pre-wrath" for when scripture teaches Christ from the clouds will snatch up His chosen ones.
Matthew 24:22
“And if those days had not been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the chosen ones those days will be cut short.
"Those days" appears to refer to the Great Tribulation. Thus before that period ends, (or is expected to end) many believe the church will be raptured. And scripture is also clear we do not now know when it will occur, but we should live as if it is imminent.
As you are probably aware, many scholars have come to very different conclusions, ie cut short means the rapture occurs before or during or when the Great Tribulation is prematurely ended. I will stick with we do not know so we should stay prepared.
8) Should we "tithe?" The New Testament indicates we should prayerfully decide what we can give to our Lord, without any specific amount such as 10% (or 23%) as required under the Old Covenant.
2 Corinthians 9:6-7
Now I say this: the one who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and the one who sows generously will also reap generously. Each one must do just as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Who decides what “secondary” issues should be agreed upon by all “genuine” Christians?
Who decides what constitutes a “genuine” Christian?
Who decides if the professing Christian isn’t really a “genuine” Christian if they don’t believe a certain way on the secondary issues?
peace to you
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Personally, I wonder how many human binary constructs are in reality just “the fallacy of the excluded middle”.
- Why must it be Calvinism OR Arminianism? If one were scripturally true and the other scripturally false, would the issue not have quickly resolved itself long ago?
- Why would OPEN or CLOSED communion be “right” and the other wrong? Do those that CLOSE communion not close it to protect it FOR THE GLORY OF GOD, and do those that OPEN communion not open it to show the universality of His Body TO THE GLORY OF GOD? So open or closed, are they not each seeking the Glory of God … how can that be a bad thing?
- I could continue, but I have made my point.
3) Single Pastor or Elder led congregation. Each local assembly should be led by several Elders (leaders) Titus 1:5
For this reason I left you in Crete, that you would set in order what remains and appoint elders in every city as I directed you,
Clarification because I must have cut off the verse cited in post #30.
Also the church, singular, at Ephesus, had "Elders" plural. Acts of the Apostles 20:17.
Finally, James 5:14 teaches those sick should call "the Elders of the church."
I do not see how anyone could deny the NT example that our local assemblies should be led by "elders" not an elder.
For this reason I left you in Crete, that you would set in order what remains and appoint elders in every city as I directed you,
Clarification because I must have cut off the verse cited in post #30.
Also the church, singular, at Ephesus, had "Elders" plural. Acts of the Apostles 20:17.
Finally, James 5:14 teaches those sick should call "the Elders of the church."
I do not see how anyone could deny the NT example that our local assemblies should be led by "elders" not an elder.
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