Apparently, went Pharoh was born, something went awry from God's creation, that is, with the God' of Calvinisms creation, because Pharoh needed to have his heart hardened lest he should obey God. If people have no ability whatsoever to respond to God, apart from the irresistible, regenerating illumination of God the Holy Spirit, how is it then that God found it needful to harden Pharoh's heart?
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God is all-powerful (omnipotent), all-knowing (omniscient), unchanging (immutable), and sovereign throughout all eternity
AND
God holds mankind accountable for their own actions.
The thread deals with the complicated topic of free will.
Free will and compulsion are contradictory.
How could God hold Pharaoh responsible if the ruler was forced to act against God’s people by God himself?
Mankind lives in the moment. Our choices are made with as much understanding as we can muster. We consider ourselves free to think and do as we will, without influence.
There are 2 different Hebrew words translated as “harden” in this episode of Exodus. One word, “qashah” means stubborn (7:3 and 13:15). The other, “kabed” means insensitive or heavy (used most frequently).
If you read through the account carefully you will notice that except for God’s prediction in Exodus (4:21), Pharaoh hardened his own heart during the early phases. (7:13, 8:15, 8:19, 8:32, 9:7, 9:34-35).
Only in the later periods (9:12, 10:1, 10:20, 10:27) does God actively harden Pharaoh’s heart. By then the die was cast.
God’s hands are in everything. He knows the number of the hairs on your head. He knows when the sparrow will fall, he clothes the lilies (Matt. 10).
God, who knows the beginning from the end, knows our hearts. He didn’t force Pharaoh to harden his heart against God’s people, he used what was already there.
It’s a rather soft determinism.
Genesis deals with that when Joseph spoke to his brothers,
‘You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good…’(50:20).
Rob
AND
God holds mankind accountable for their own actions.
The thread deals with the complicated topic of free will.
Free will and compulsion are contradictory.
How could God hold Pharaoh responsible if the ruler was forced to act against God’s people by God himself?
Mankind lives in the moment. Our choices are made with as much understanding as we can muster. We consider ourselves free to think and do as we will, without influence.
There are 2 different Hebrew words translated as “harden” in this episode of Exodus. One word, “qashah” means stubborn (7:3 and 13:15). The other, “kabed” means insensitive or heavy (used most frequently).
If you read through the account carefully you will notice that except for God’s prediction in Exodus (4:21), Pharaoh hardened his own heart during the early phases. (7:13, 8:15, 8:19, 8:32, 9:7, 9:34-35).
Only in the later periods (9:12, 10:1, 10:20, 10:27) does God actively harden Pharaoh’s heart. By then the die was cast.
God’s hands are in everything. He knows the number of the hairs on your head. He knows when the sparrow will fall, he clothes the lilies (Matt. 10).
God, who knows the beginning from the end, knows our hearts. He didn’t force Pharaoh to harden his heart against God’s people, he used what was already there.
It’s a rather soft determinism.
Genesis deals with that when Joseph spoke to his brothers,
‘You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good…’(50:20).
Rob
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Total inability refers to coming to God for salvation. People are always responding according to their nature.
As much as you attack “Calvinism”, you would think you could understand what the basic tenets of the doctrines of grace actually mean.
peace to you
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
You got the wording of your response wrong, the corrected version is as follows.
As much as you defend “Calvinism”, you would think you could understand what the basic tenets of the doctrines of grace actually mean.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the correction. I didn’t think the OP was a defender of the doctrines of grace. If true, he should know the answer to his own question.
peace to you
Dave G
Well-Known Member
According to the way I understand God's word, there is no "inability" to respond to Him...
It's a total lack of desire to respond in anything other than a negative way, at the "heart" level.
In other words, we as men are predisposed to hating God and His Son, and we will not come to Him lest our deeds should be reproved ( John 3:19-20 ).
If God desires to save someone, He has to do the work...or no one comes to Him at all.
Because His word says that He did, and it also says that He does it to others as well.
Please see Exodus 4, John 12, Romans 9 and Romans 11.
The reason that the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart against Him is stated in the text...Exodus 4:21:
So that Pharaoh would refuse to let God's people of Israel go from their bondage of slavery in Egypt...
and the Lord God would then respond to that refusal with a series of plagues.
My friend, I've observed over the years that the fact that this event happened the way that it did, seems hard for most professing Christians to believe.
They don't understand why it had to happen, neither do many accept that God did the hardening, even though our hearts are already sufficiently hardened ( in our desires and affections ), towards Him and His ways.
Nevertheless, He pointedly says in Romans 9 that He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy, and He will harden whom He will harden.
May God bless you.
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How can God hold anyone accountable for sins that He Himself made them do, if He in fact did so? In the case of God hardening someone's heart, it is not an indirect execution of sin on His part, as though through allowance like that which is needed to fulfil prophecy, because He directly changed the state of their heart so that, instead of having refrained from sin, they sinned. This makes Him culpable for the very act that they did, because He is the one that directly caused them to do it.
In my understanding, God hardens people's hearts indirectly, by the offense of His Word operating through their own rebellion. Am I correct or am I mistaken?
In my understanding, God hardens people's hearts indirectly, by the offense of His Word operating through their own rebellion. Am I correct or am I mistaken?
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"Why doth he still find fault?"
"Is there unrighteousness with God?"
Here's one example of Him 'indirectly' doing so: 1 Kings 22:20-23
...maybe another: Luke 22:31
...and another: Acts of the Apostles 4:26-28
I agree with you (both statements)
One could present a case that God made me do it.
Hardening is an attitude though, an inward proclivity towards an outward action (reminds me of James 1:13-15).
BUT there are so many other things that I’ve done with total awareness that I could be condemned for.
God is just.
We are sinners condemned by our own deeds.
Praise him for his mercy and grace!
Rob
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Once again the Calvinist leaning posters are running away from the TULIP" "T."
Here is the actual doctrine. "Total depravity" [AKA Total Spiritual Inability] is the teaching that the unregenerate man is totally dead in sin to the extent that he has the inability to freely accept Jesus Christ."
1) One poster did not address the position but posted LOL.
2) Another poster questioned whether to harden someone actually makes the stubborn and insensitive.
3) The next poster said the doctrine was coming to Jesus for salvation rather than not having the ability to come to Jesus.
4) The next agree that God hardened Pharaoh after Pharaoh had hardened his own heart to some degree.
No one addressed the issue presented in the OP, if we are dead in our sins at conception, we would have no ability to seek God or trust in Christ according to Calvinism. However, God hardened the heart of Pharaoh, proving his prior hardening was not total, thereby proving the doctrine of total spiritual inability if false doctrine.
Here is the actual doctrine. "Total depravity" [AKA Total Spiritual Inability] is the teaching that the unregenerate man is totally dead in sin to the extent that he has the inability to freely accept Jesus Christ."
1) One poster did not address the position but posted LOL.
2) Another poster questioned whether to harden someone actually makes the stubborn and insensitive.
3) The next poster said the doctrine was coming to Jesus for salvation rather than not having the ability to come to Jesus.
4) The next agree that God hardened Pharaoh after Pharaoh had hardened his own heart to some degree.
No one addressed the issue presented in the OP, if we are dead in our sins at conception, we would have no ability to seek God or trust in Christ according to Calvinism. However, God hardened the heart of Pharaoh, proving his prior hardening was not total, thereby proving the doctrine of total spiritual inability if false doctrine.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
@Guido:
Please read my reply carefully...
I did not say that mankind has no inability to respond to God.
I said that mankind, according to the Scriptures, has no ability to respond positively to God.
So, if God were to "offer" us salvation ( it's not an "offer", contrary to what anyone who teaches that it is, says about it ), then no one would willingly come to Him because He demands our repentance and obedience ( John 3:19-20 ).
...which is the last thing unrepentant sinners want to do.
Please read my reply carefully...
I did not say that mankind has no inability to respond to God.
I said that mankind, according to the Scriptures, has no ability to respond positively to God.
So, if God were to "offer" us salvation ( it's not an "offer", contrary to what anyone who teaches that it is, says about it ), then no one would willingly come to Him because He demands our repentance and obedience ( John 3:19-20 ).
...which is the last thing unrepentant sinners want to do.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
God doesn't force anyone to sin ( James 1:13-16 ).
We do a fine job of that without any help, my friend ( Romans 1:30-32 ).
See above, please.
Whatever God does, it is in perfect holiness and righteousness...no matter what His creation thinks otherwise.
If He decides to reveal Himself to someone, that is His prerogative.
If He decides to hide His face from someone and leave them in their spiritual deadness, to later judge them for their every sin, then that is His prerogative.
I agree with you in that what I've highlighted is one of the ways that He hardens someone.
Now the real question I have for you is this...
Based on Scripture alone, how does He soften our hearts and minds towards Him and His ways, when His word says that we are all hardened and rebellious towards Him ( Romans 3:10-18 )?
Good evening to you, and may He bless you in many ways.