Under the Moral Law?

[Martin Marprelate]

is this what Chapter 19 of the Baptist Confessions of Faith means? Because to me it reads as contrary to Galatians 4.

The BCF is not contrary to Galatians 4 or any other portion of Scripture.
What you ned to understand is that the Galatian Christians were being encouraged by false teachers to adopt the Jewish ceremonial law, especially circumcision (Galatians 5:1-6; cf. Acts of the Apostles 15:1). The idea that the law cannot be divided is completely crackers! For a start, all the 10 Commandments can be found in Scripture before Exodus 20.
As someone who has been in church leadership for many years, I have seen professing Christians make complete shipwreck because they believed they were 'walking in the Spirit.' "It feels so right, I can't believe that God isn't in it!" Let me finish by saying, if you or anyone else thinks the Spirit is leading you to do something that is against God's Moral Law, it's not the Holy Spirit you're hearing, it's something else entirely!

 

[JonC]

The BCF is not contrary to Galatians 4 or any other portion of Scripture.
What you ned to understand is that the Galatian Christians were being encouraged by false teachers to adopt the Jewish ceremonial law, especially circumcision (Galatians 5:1-6; cf. Acts of the Apostles 15:1). The idea that the law cannot be divided is completely crackers! For a start, all the 10 Commandments can be found in Scripture before Exodus 20.
As someone who has been in church leadership for many years, I have seen professing Christians make complete shipwreck because they believed they were 'walking in the Spirit.' "It feels so right, I can't believe that God isn't in it!" Let me finish by saying, if you or anyone else thinks the Spirit is leading you to do something that is against God's Moral Law, it's not the Holy Spirit you're hearing, it's something else entirely!

You are missing the point Paul made.

Christians, being under the Law of Christ and walking in the Spirit, establish the Law.

That does not mean we disobey God's moral law. It means the opposite. But obedience is descriptive of walking in the Spirit, of loving God and man. It is not prescriptive. If we love Christ we will obey His commands. NOT love Christ by obeying His commands.

We were never under the Ten Commandments (which were given by God as a covenant with Israel). BUT the moral aspects of those commands are universal and eternal because they reflect God's standard.

If you place yourself under the Law then you must obey every command (to disobey one...like a dietary law...is to disobey the whole).

The difference between your understanding and Scripture is legalism. If we love Christ, if we walk in the Spirit, then we fulfill every moral aspect. If we find ourselves stealing, lying, murdering, etc. then we are not following the Law of Christ.

 

[KenH]

I am reminded of what the apostle Paul wrote about those who make up rules(remember the Pharisees), who fashion themselves as gatekeepers of the "moral law":

Colossians 2:20-23(NKJV) Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations—“Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men? These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.

I figure a pretty good rule of thumb is that in loving God to always keep God on His throne and keep yourself in the dust(as Isaiah in Isaiah chapter 6 and Job in Job chapter 42); and in loving one's neighbor, to first off, don't break his leg and don't steal his stuff, and, as God provides an opportunity to help him out when needed, do so(as Jesus described in the story of the Good Samaritan in Luke chapter 10).

 

[DaveXR650]

We were never under the Ten Commandments (which were given by God as a covenant with Israel). BUT the moral aspects of those commands are universal and eternal because they reflect God's standard.

What gets confusing is that what you mean by "being under" makes all the difference. We all have been and always will be under the moral law in the sense of the moral law being right and we being obligated to obey it. We are not under the law and probably never were, in the sense that keeping it will save us, simply because we didn't, and still don't, in all cases. What I see being taught nowadays is almost to the point of teaching the idea that you have to be Spirit led and your main obligation is don't you dare read a Biblical teaching and do it because it is a Biblical teaching as that will make you a legalist. All making the law a "rule of life" does is say that these teachings are the same as what you do when you are truly led by the Spirit. The scripture can be a means of knowing how to behave. The Spirit will indeed help you in areas not spelled out as you go through life but will never be in contradiction to the teachings of scripture. Any perceived contradiction should be a huge red flag for a Christian and a signal to stop immediately and figure it out. I think I remember where Thomas Kempis said that ideally, it is desirable to get to the point where you would do good and obey Christ unconsciously, not even realizing you were doing it because it had become so much of who you now are. That would be idea but if you happen to read in scripture verses teaching you the same thing what do you do now - you either have to obey or disobey what you know to be the moral law.

 

[JonC]

What gets confusing is that what you mean by "being under" makes all the difference. We all have been and always will be under the moral law in the sense of the moral law being right and we being obligated to obey it. We are not under the law and probably never were, in the sense that keeping it will save us, simply because we didn't, and still don't, in all cases. What I see being taught nowadays is almost to the point of teaching the idea that you have to be Spirit led and your main obligation is don't you dare read a Biblical teaching and do it because it is a Biblical teaching as that will make you a legalist. All making the law a "rule of life" does is say that these teachings are the same as what you do when you are truly led by the Spirit. The scripture can be a means of knowing how to behave. The Spirit will indeed help you in areas not spelled out as you go through life but will never be in contradiction to the teachings of scripture. Any perceived contradiction should be a huge red flag for a Christian and a signal to stop immediately and figure it out. I think I remember where Thomas Kempis said that ideally, it is desirable to get to the point where you would do good and obey Christ unconsciously, not even realizing you were doing it because it had become so much of who you now are. That would be idea but if you happen to read in scripture verses teaching you the same thing what do you do now - you either have to obey or disobey what you know to be the moral law.

"Being under" does make all the difference.

Scripture gives us people under the Law and under the Law of Christ. There were others, per Scripture, who were "not under the Law".

The "being under" part indicates a covenant. The Law was over Israel from a particular time in history. That was the "Old Covenant". We, however, are under a "New Covenant" and a new law (the Law of Christ).

Sin, however, reigned even over those who were not under the Law.

We do not need to make up covenants or laws. Scripture covers this so called "moral law" be explaining that all have fallen short of the glory of God.

This was the purpose of the Law - to be a teacher, or "school master" in showing sin.

We are not under the Law, or the so called "moral law". If we were then we could earn salvation by meeting it's requirements. But we can't.

We are under a New Covenant. The moral aspects of the Law show us when we fail to walk by this covenant. But under the New Covenant there is forgiveness as we are not under a law that provides a way to earn our own salvation.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

You are missing the point Paul made.

Christians, being under the Law of Christ and walking in the Spirit, establish the Law.

That does not mean we disobey God's moral law. It means the opposite. But obedience is descriptive of walking in the Spirit, of loving God and man. It is not prescriptive. If we love Christ we will obey His commands. NOT love Christ by obeying His commands.

We were never under the Ten Commandments (which were given by God as a covenant with Israel). BUT the moral aspects of those commands are universal and eternal because they reflect God's standard.

If you place yourself under the Law then you must obey every command (to disobey one...like a dietary law...is to disobey the whole).

The difference between your understanding and Scripture is legalism. If we love Christ, if we walk in the Spirit, then we fulfill every moral aspect. If we find ourselves stealing, lying, murdering, etc. then we are not following the Law of Christ.

That's OK. I'll be a legalist with Spurgeon and Paul. 'Not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ.'

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I am reminded of what the apostle Paul wrote about those who make up rules(remember the Pharisees), who fashion themselves as gatekeepers of the "moral law":

Colossians 2:20-23(NKJV) Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations—“Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men? These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.

Once again you are confusing the Moral law with the ceremonial and dietary laws. The Colossians, in slightly different circumstances to the Galatians, were being led by false teachers into obeying the law of Moses in regard to eating, drinking, touching dead bodies and so forth. 'Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters' (1 Corinthians 7:19).

I figure a pretty good rule of thumb is that in loving God to always keep God on His throne and keep yourself in the dust(as Isaiah in Isaiah chapter 6 and Job in Job chapter 42)

Yep! Don't put any gods before Him; don't take His name in vain, don't have any idols in your life, and keep the His day special.

and in loving one's neighbor, to first off, don't break his leg and don't steal his stuff, and, as God provides an opportunity to help him out when needed, do so(as Jesus described in the story of the Good Samaritan in Luke chapter 10).

Yep. Also, don't lie to him, don't steal his wife and don't covet any of his stuff.
We aren't really very far apart.

 

[AustinC]

The New Covenant is the written "last will and testament" of Jesus that He has engraved on our hearts (Hebrews 9). This engraving is a mark on us so that God the Father will never condemn us for failing to keep the Old Covenant law precisely because Jesus fully kept the Old Covenant law and substituted his holiness by imparting it to us in His will. Meanwhile our sins were placed upon Jesus and forever redeemed at the cross.

So, the New Covenant is written on our hearts and we obey all that Christ commands, not to be saved, but precisely because we are saved and we are marked by the New Covenant.

 

[37818]

'Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters' (1 Corinthians 7:19).

1 John 3:22-24, ". . . And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us. . . ." The commandments of the New, not referring to the Old.

 

[JonC]

That's OK. I'll be a legalist with Spurgeon and Paul. 'Not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ.'

No, you are not with Paul (it was Paul I referenced).

We are not without law at all. You just choose the wrong law.

It is God through Paul that said we are not under the Law, that Jesus wiped out the written law with its rules. The law was against us. It opposed us. But Jesus took it away and nailed it to the cross.

We are not under the Law but we are not without law towards God. We are under the Law of Christ.

I know you reject this truth. But in so doing you reject God, not me.

Now, if you can think of an immoral act that is not covered under the Law of Christ - even one moral command that we would disobey while obeying the Law of Christ - then you might have a point.

But you can't because the Old Covenant Law does not establish the New Covenant Law as much as you desire it to be that way. We, under the New Covenant, under the Law of Christ, establish the Law.

We have argued this for years and I do not pretend to change your mind. You are set in your traditions and that is fine.

I am posting for @JasonF .

@JasonF ,

Do not believe MartinM. Do not believe me.

Beware of philosophes, even "Christian" philosophy and tradition.

Read your Bible and believe what God has said about these things.

Colossians 2:14–17 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Galatians 3:10–14 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. 13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: 14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Galatians 3:23–29 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Romans 3:28–31 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

 

[JasonF]

Thank you @JonC, @AustinC, @KenH and others, perhaps even those who disagree as perhaps all of this is helping me to get a proper view Romans 8:28. I do have to believe we are not under the law and not to be by the works of the law, for our righteousness is of faith, but that doesn't mean we live without law to God, though i am still confused on that part, or that we walk in sin, but rather we live to glorify God and to walk following the Spirit is what i am getting.

 

[AustinC]

Thank you @JonC, @AustinC, @KenH and others, perhaps even those who disagree as perhaps all of this is helping me to get a proper view Romans 8:28. I do have to believe we are not under the law and not to be by the works of the law, for our righteousness is of faith, but that doesn't mean we live without law to God, though i am still confused on that part, or that we walk in sin, but rather we live to glorify God and to walk following the Spirit is what i am getting.

God is glorified in Christ. If God were looking at us, instead of our substitute, "all our righteousness would be as filthy rags" before God. It is our foolish pride that thinks we could do something that impresses God. What impresses God is His Son and His Son's perfect holiness. This is why we say, with Paul, "I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose."
~ Galatians 2:20-21

Jason, find your joy in Christ alone. He chose you and purchased you for His own, not because of your inherent goodness, but purely because of His particular grace for you, which was entirely undeserved.
Now, live in that grace and endeavor to be holy as He is holy by living your life in Christ. Let Christ live in you. Let go of your worries and embrace your inheritance as a child of God.

 

[Reformed]

The Reformers view(ed) the moral law as the inherent knowledge of right and wrong. Before the Ten Commandments, mankind was still accountable for sin. Romans 5:13 - or until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. So, even though "the Law" was not yet codified at Sinai, the knowledge of right and wrong existed. This is what the Reformers referred to as "moral knowledge" or the moral law. As Baptists, we bristle at the idea that we are under the law, and we certainly are not. But even though we are under grace, we are still held accountable for doing wrong. We can face the chastening of the Lord when we sin.

 

[Piper]

The "LAW" as in OT Law, is never spoken of in plural, like "Laws" so it is an indivisible unity.

Romans 6:14 clearly says we are n longer under law, but under grace.

Therefore, any supposed division into moral/ civil/ ceremonial, is man made and false.

We are not under OT law. Maybe the Law of Christ, or the Law of Liberty, or the Law of love all mentioned in the NT.