Was it the Choice of God That You Were Born Into the World

[JD731]

The answer is no, not in most cases. Natural births happen through a natural process that God has set into motion in the beginning. The decision to produce children is a human one and several natural laws are involved for a conception and birth to take place.
The proof of this is in the very real practice of many Calvinists, and others, of family planning and birth control. Common sense says if a man and his wife are controlling the size of their family by human inventions then God is not. Therefore to teach that God has chosen who will be born again when it was not his choice who or how many will be born the first time is non biblical heresy. The truth is God elects all those who are born again by his Spirit when they hear and believe the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Who will agree that is what God says through his prophets?

It is God’s choice to provide salvation to all who are born and will receive it as a gift by taking sin away and not charging anyone with personal sins while they live. He did this by punishing one perfect man, his own son, as a substitute for us all.

Salvatiion must be received by faith before a man dies the first death because the Bible says, “As it is appointed unto man once to die, and after this the judgement.” He 9:27.

The second death has no power over the man who has been born twice.

 

[Marooncat79]

You are correct

it was not Gods choice for any of us to be born, it was Gods Decree.

God is the absolute ruler of the universe, He is not some disinterested, impotent wooden idol

 

[Marooncat79]

Couple of Examples

Jeremiah
Certainly Cyrus
Pharaoh of Egypt

 

[37818]

I doubt either Arminian or Calvinist actually believe what God decrees.
Genesis 22:11-12, ". . . And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, . . . for now I know that thou fearest God, . . ."

 

[JD731]

POINT #1 -You are correct

Point #2 - it was not Gods choice for any of us to be born, it was Gods Decree.

Point # 3 - God is the absolute ruler of the universe, (Point #4)He is not some disinterested, impotent wooden idol

Point #1 comment - Thanks

Point # 2 Comment - Did God decide to not have a choice to have a decree?

Point #3 - Comment - God could have done anything he chose to do, including to be the absolute ruler of the universe in the context you imply, being a Calvinist as I suppose, but he did not. He has revealed his character and his MO in the written word of God and only a very deceived person would come to the conclusions about God that Calvinists hold.

Point #4 Comment - For God to be Love, kind, compassionate, merciful, longsuffering, gracious pitiful, as he reveals himself to be in the scriptures and in history does not make him some disinterested, impotent wooden idol as you seem to suggest. That would be bad theology coming from an extremely bad concept of God.

 

[JD731]

Couple of Examples

Jeremiah
Certainly Cyrus
Pharaoh of Egypt

It was the word of the LORD (Lord GOD) who came to Jeremiah and spoke to him. Here is the record.

2 To whom the word of the LORD came in the days of Josiah the son of Amon king of Judah, in the thirteenth year of his reign.
3 It came also in the days of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, unto the end of the eleventh year of Zedekiah the son of Josiah king of Judah, unto the carrying away of Jerusalem captive in the fifth month.

4 ¶ Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Verses 3 and 4 is past tense with a prophesy which came true. This speaks much more about the word of the LORD than about Jeremiah. It means he, the word of the LORD, is omnipresent and is not constrained by time and distance.

6 Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! behold, I cannot speak: for I am a child.
7 But the LORD said unto me, Say not, I am a child: for thou shalt go to all that I shall send thee, and whatsoever I command thee thou shalt speak.
8 Be not afraid of their faces: for I am with thee to deliver thee, saith the LORD.
9 Then the LORD put forth his hand, and touched my mouth. And the LORD said unto me, Behold, I have put my words in thy mouth.
10 See, I have this day set thee over the nations and over the kingdoms, to root out, and to pull down, and to destroy, and to throw down, to build, and to plant.

The word of the LORD in verse 4 is the Lord GOD (Adonai Jehovah) of verse 6.

 

[KenH]

"God's will determines all the choices and circumstances of his creatures, so that nothing is up to man's "free will." In fact, because God is completely sovereign, man has no free will:

All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. (Psalms 139:16)

The LORD works out everything for his own ends – even the wicked for a day of disaster. (Proverbs 16:4)

In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps. (Proverbs 16:9)

A man's steps are directed by the LORD. How then can anyone understand his own way? (Proverbs 20:24)

The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD; he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases. (Proverbs 21:1)

All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him: "What have you done?" (Daniel 4:35)

Now listen, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business and make money." Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. Instead, you ought to say, "If it is the Lord's will, we will live and do this or that." (James 4:13-15)

All things are decided and caused by God – nothing is free from his control, and he has not chosen to forego his control on anything. The doctrine is repulsive to those who abhor the rule and honor of God, and so they oppose it. But the doctrine is a source of comfort and celebration to those who love him. Why would we want it any other way, than for God to rule over all things? And what better life can we wish for, than to be ruled by God?"

- excerpt from Vincent Cheung's Systematic Theology

 

[JD731]

"God's will determines all the choices and circumstances of his creatures, so that nothing is up to man's "free will." In fact, because God is completely sovereign, man has no free will:

All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. (Psalms 139:16)

The LORD works out everything for his own ends – even the wicked for a day of disaster. (Proverbs 16:4)

In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps. (Proverbs 16:9)

A man's steps are directed by the LORD. How then can anyone understand his own way? (Proverbs 20:24)

The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD; he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases. (Proverbs 21:1)

All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him: "What have you done?" (Daniel 4:35)

Now listen, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business and make money." Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. Instead, you ought to say, "If it is the Lord's will, we will live and do this or that." (James 4:13-15)

All things are decided and caused by God – nothing is free from his control, and he has not chosen to forego his control on anything. The doctrine is repulsive to those who abhor the rule and honor of God, and so they oppose it. But the doctrine is a source of comfort and celebration to those who love him. Why would we want it any other way, than for God to rule over all things? And what better life can we wish for, than to be ruled by God?"

- excerpt from Vincent Cheung's Systematic Theology

You have quoted single verses from the book of wisdom for the most part, the book of Proverbs. You have done this to advance your own private interpretation of the scriptures to attempt to make the word of God fit your own presuppositions. The subjects of these verses have whole prophetic passages that deal with them elsewhere in the scriptures and gives us light. Single verses could be mined from the proverbs that would seem to advance anyone's false theology. It is not the ways to build your doctrinal views but your practical walk before God. It is instruction for the single hearer who desires wisdom. 16:9, "A man plans his course." 20:24, "A man's steps are ordered by the LORD." 21:1 "The King's heart is in the hand of the LORD,"

How you managed to apply Psa 139 to yourself is a mystery to me when it is obviously applied as prophetic utterances of our Lord Jesus Christ.


Wisdom personified:
Pro 20:20 Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets:
21 She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, saying,
22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?
23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.
24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
27 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.
28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.
31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.
32 For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.
33 But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.

 

[JD731]

I doubt either Arminian or Calvinist actually believe what God decrees.
Genesis 22:11-12, ". . . And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, . . . for now I know that thou fearest God, . . ."

Fundamentalists do!

 

[Salty]

Methinks that my parents had something to do with that decision

 

[JD731]

Methinks that my parents had something to do with that decision

Yes, that is kinda the point of the thread. God chose only one person before the foundation of the world, his own son Jesus Christ. He purposed to put your 14 brothers and sisters, had your parents decided to have that many children, into Christ when and if they believed his gospel.

The idea that the Reformed put forward in their doctrines that God has chosen them particularly by name in eternity past to be saved is a very false presentation of what God says and necessitates the practice of putting their twists on other plain and easy to be understood words of God, like the following.


Revelation 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

This is God’s definition of “grace” after everything else has been said.

 

[KenH]

From my observation: The thing that unregenerated people appear to hate the most, when confronted with it in God's Word, is God, the Creator of all that is(including them), being upon His throne and doing with ALL of His creation(including THEM) as He wills and purposes for HIS glory. When God tells them this in His Word, their flesh-based reaction to what God says is, "How dare you!"

Isaiah 29:16 For shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

Isaiah 64:8 We are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

Romans 9:20-21 O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

(emphasis mine)

 

[KenH]

Revelation 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Christ told us who will come:

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him.

John 6:45 Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

(emphasis mine)

 

[JD731]

Christ told us who will come:

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him.

John 6:45 Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

(emphasis mine)

Why doesn't those words mean what they say? Why do you have them saying those men the Father gave to the Son have been pre-elected. They do not say that. Drawing is a different word than elect. God knows and uses both words.

Only Jews are drawn in the scriptures and only before the cross. Paul wrote 13 letters to gentiles from 49 AD to 67 AD and he never ever used the word draw. He never even used the word. Neither did John in his 3 epistiles or in the Revelation. He used the word in his gospel account of the earthly ministry of Jesus Christ. Think! Why did God want the Jews to come to the earthly man called Jesus Christ. It is because there are many prophesies of Jesus which were given to these people concerning his coming in the flesh. It was important to God that they believe these promises when he fulfilled them. This is how his promises are confirmed. By them being fulfilled.

You have the wrong teachers. You are deceived. You are believing things that are not true.

Think, man! Think!

 

[atpollard]

The answer is no, not in most cases. Natural births happen through a natural process that God has set into motion in the beginning. The decision to produce children is a human one and several natural laws are involved for a conception and birth to take place.

Who will agree that is what God says through his prophets?

• [Gen 29:31 KJV] 31 And when the LORD saw that Leah [was] hated, he opened her womb: but Rachel [was] barren.
• [Gen 30:22 KJV] 22 And God remembered Rachel, and God hearkened to her, and opened her womb.
• [1Sa 1:5-6 KJV] 5 But unto Hannah he gave a worthy portion; for he loved Hannah: but the LORD had shut up her womb. 6 And her adversary also provoked her sore, for to make her fret, because the LORD had shut up her womb.
• [Job 3:10 KJV] 10 Because it shut not up the doors of my [mother's] womb, nor hid sorrow from mine eyes.
• [Job 31:15 KJV] 15 Did not he that made me in the womb make him? and did not one fashion us in the womb?
• [Psa 22:9 KJV] 9 But thou [art] he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope [when I was] upon my mother's breasts.
• [Psa 127:3 KJV] 3 Lo, children [are] an heritage of the LORD: [and] the fruit of the womb [is his] reward.
• [Ecc 11:5 KJV] 5 As thou knowest not what [is] the way of the spirit, [nor] how the bones [do grow] in the womb of her that is with child: even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all.
• [Isa 44:2, 24 KJV] 2 Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, [which] will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen. ... 24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I [am] the LORD that maketh all [things]; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
• [Isa 46:3 KJV] 3 Hearken unto me, O house of Jacob, and all the remnant of the house of Israel, which are borne [by me] from the belly, which are carried from the womb:
• [Isa 49:5 KJV] 5 And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb [to be] his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength.
• [Isa 66:9 KJV] 9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut [the womb]? saith thy God.
• [Jer 1:5 KJV] 5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
• [Hos 9:14, 16 KJV] 14 Give them, O LORD: what wilt thou give? give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts. ... 16 Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay [even] the beloved [fruit] of their womb.
• [Luk 1:15 KJV] 15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
• [Rom 4:19 KJV] 19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:

I stand with the Prophets and I DISAGREE.

[I thought the question was about BEING BORN ... how did this thread "jump the shark" so quickly?]

 

[KenH]

Why doesn't those words mean what they say? Why do you have them saying those men the Father gave to the Son have been pre-elected. They do not say that. Drawing is a different word than elect. God knows and uses both words.

Only Jews are drawn in the scriptures and only before the cross. Paul wrote 13 letters to gentiles from 49 AD to 67 AD and he never ever used the word draw. He never even used the word. Neither did John in his 3 epistiles or in the Revelation. He used the word in his gospel account of the earthly ministry of Jesus Christ. Think! Why did God want the Jews to come to the earthly man called Jesus Christ. It is because there are many prophesies of Jesus which were given to these people concerning his coming in the flesh. It was important to God that they believe these promises when he fulfilled them. This is how his promises are confirmed. By them being fulfilled.

You have the wrong teachers. You are deceived. You are believing things that are not true.

Think, man! Think!

Evidently, you believe that God doesn't always achieve what He wants, that God can fail. You are wrong. Very, very, very, very WRONG. You sound like Noel Smith in this article by Curtis A. Pugh:

"Without considering the consequences of such a system of belief, most professing Christians today have adopted a theology which makes God a failure! Historically, this system was first taught by Thomas Aquinas among the Catholics and is known as Thomism. Later, among some Protestants these ideas were popularized by James Arminius and others. Today they are known by the term Arminianism (not to be confused with Armenia). This free will system of doctrine is the tie that binds Catholicism and Protestantism together -- and in our day a host of nominal Baptists who also have fallen prey to it.

By carelessness in Bible study on the part of many -- and evident wresting of the Scriptures on the part of some -- many professing Christians now claim to worship a god who is a failure! Often these people slander the Bible by saying it contains two contradictory lines of teaching which cannot be reconciled. They may claim to believe in a sovereign God, but at the same time think mankind has a "free will" by which he can resist God and hinder His working. Thus, they take the Thomist/Arminian view and promote free-willism. (Nowhere does the Bible teach that man's will is free from his depraved nature!)

This free will system of doctrine sets forth a god who is a wimp. He loves everybody (in spite of clear Bible teaching that God has set His love only on His elect people). The god of this theological system is trying to save everybody, but cannot because they will not let him. Therefore this god is a failure!

Most often, adherents to this Catholic system of theology deny vehemently that they teach that their god is a failure. However, occasionally one of their preachers will say in words or substance, "God has done everything He can do to save you. The rest is up to you". Or perhaps their preaching takes the slant that you must "let God" do this or that in your life. If you do not "let God" He cannot accomplish His purpose in your life, according to the god-is-a-failure theory.

As further proof, we quote one prominent "Baptist" (BBF) preacher of some years ago as representative of this Thomist/Arminian view. He wrote, ". . . hell is a ghastly monument to the failure of the Triune God to save the multitudes who are there . . . sinners go to hell because God Almighty couldn't save them! He did all He could. He failed." [Noel Smith, "Universal Atonement," Defender Magazine, Springfield, MO., U.S.A., December, 1956]."

- rest of article at Is God a Failure? (libcfl.com)

 

[Marooncat79]

Yes, that is kinda the point of the thread. God chose only one person before the foundation of the world, his own son Jesus Christ. He purposed to put your 14 brothers and sisters, had your parents decided to have that many children, into Christ when and if they believed his gospel.

The idea that the Reformed put forward in their doctrines that God has chosen them particularly by name in eternity past to be saved is a very false presentation of what God says and necessitates the practice of putting their twists on other plain and easy to be understood words of God, like the following.


Revelation 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

This is God’s definition of “grace” after everything else has been said.

Have you read about the Lambs book of Life in Revelation? The one from before the foundation of the Earth.

it has specific names of believers right?

 

[Marooncat79]

I think most of us on here were fundamentalists at one time, but came to find the theology therein defective to the point of borderline blasphemous; what is being espoused by some here is a prime example of that theology.

the Bible speaks of a God that “does all that He wills to glorify Himself”.

 

[JD731]

Have you read about the Lambs book of Life in Revelation? The one from before the foundation of the Earth.

it has specific names of believers right?

The difference between you and me is that I will not insert extra words into a text to make my point like you have. Maybe I just have better reading skills than you.

Re 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

When you sense the need to edit the text to make your point you have identified yourself as a false prophet. There is a difference between the words "before" and "from." The text does not say "from before" as you presented it as you can clearly see.

Now, God uses both words depending upon the context. When he is speaking of things pertaining to Jesus Christ he uses the word, before. When it is the context of his salvation of sinners he uses the word, from.

1 Pe 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, [as] silver and gold, from your vain conversation [received] by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Re 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Marooncat79]

Revelation 21:27