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Featured Spiritual Ability of the Lost

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Jul 2, 2023.

  1. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    1) Why did Jesus speak in parables in Matthew 13, if the lost could not hear and understand the milk of the gospel?

    Answer Matthew 13 "10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?” 11 ]Jesus answered them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. 12 For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. 13 Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

    Jesus spoke in parables without providing an explanation to prevent them from seeing, hearing and understanding. Thus they had some spiritual ability that had to be countered by using parables.

    2) Why did God harden the hearts of the disbelieving Jews in Romans 11, if they were already unable to respond to the gospel.

    Answer Romans 11 "
    7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;
    8 just as it is written,
    “God gave them a spirit of stupor,
    Eyes to see not and ears to hear not,
    Down to this very day.”

    9 And David says,
    “Let their table become a snare and a trap,
    And a stumbling block and a retribution to them.
    10 “Let their eyes be darkened to see not,
    And bend their backs forever.”

    Scripture says God prevented the unbelieving Jews from seeing, hearing and understanding, which means they had that capacity before God hardened them.

    Again, IMHO, it is obvious that Jesus spoke in parables and God hardened hearts to prevent the lost from using their limited autonomous will to respond to the gospel.

    Can the lost understand all spiritual things? Nope They can understand and respond affirmatively to spiritual milk, the fundamentals of the gospel, but cannot understand spiritual solid food (meat) because that is discerned only with the aid of our indwelt "helper."
     
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  2. RipponRedeaux

    RipponRedeaux Well-Known Member

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    You are confused Van. The unspiritual (those without the Spirit) cannot understand/accept things that come from the Spirit of God. These people consider these things foolishness.
    Even immature baby Christians can receive spiritual milk. Why? Because they are in Christ. The unsaved/non-believers/non-Christians/perishing are not in Christ. They cannot understand spiritual things and cannot receive spiritual milk. No place in Scripture does it say that the unconverted are able to receive spiritual milk. Hence, your feeble protestations are null and void.
     
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  3. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Note how this poster rewrites 1 Corinthians 2:14 according to the agenda driven mistranslation of the NIV. Go figure.
    And also how 1 Corinthians 3:1 is rewritten, with the phrase "as to men of flesh" expunged.
    This is all they have, repeated efforts to rewrite scripture to avoid the obvious truth their doctrines are false.
     
  4. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Luke 13:24 NASB
    “Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able."

    Now put on your thinking caps, folks, and ask yourselves, how is it that many will seek to enter eternal life if they "cannot understand/accept things that come from the Spirit of God?"

    According to the very words of Christ, many of the lost can understand and accept the spiritual milk of the gospel and seek to find salvation perhaps by works or by faith.

    Once again it is obvious to anyone who actually reads scripture that the doctrine in total spiritual inability of all the lost is bogus.
     
    #4 Van, Jul 3, 2023
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2023
  5. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Luke 10:2 NASB
    And He was saying to them, “The harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few; therefore plead with the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest.

    Now put on your thinking caps, folks, as ask yourselves, how is it that the harvest in plentiful, if the lost suffers from total spiritual inability? How would more "laborers" (witnesses for the gospel of Christ) increase the harvest? Do not deny the obvious. :)
     
  6. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    Because they will seek to do it by their own works, their own actions...instead of being the called according to His purpose ( Romans 8:28 ).
    Do you not see that the number of God's elect left to call through the Gospel, at the point that He spoke that, was still largely left undone? Now, 2,000 years later on, the harvest is nearly complete, my friend. The fullness of the Gentiles is close to coming in.

    Let those of us who trust Him and believe His words... look up, for our Saviour's return is very near. :)
     
    #6 Dave G, Jul 3, 2023
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2023
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  7. RipponRedeaux

    RipponRedeaux Well-Known Member

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    Van, I challenge you to produce Scripture to support your view that the unregenerate/unconverted//unsaved/people without the Holy Spirit/the lost/those who are hostile to God/those without hope/the perishing --- are able to receive spiritual milk.
     
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  8. RipponRedeaux

    RipponRedeaux Well-Known Member

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    I was not quoting from the NIV in post 2. You know that, but you fib on a regular basis Van.
     
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  9. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Once again Calvinism's defense requires saying on one hand, no lost person ever seeks God at any time, and then because when they do seek God it is always by works. :)
     
  10. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    LOL, yet another effort to derail actual discussion of biblical teachings.
    Did I say RR was quoting? Nope, so FIB number one. Did I say according to the NIV translation? You bet.

    1 Corinthians 2:14 NIV
    The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.​
    And what did RR post?
    The unspiritual (those without the Spirit) cannot understand/accept things that come from the Spirit of God.

    Note that the NIV mistranslates the verse by adding "that come" to alter the message and make it applicable to everything from the Spirit of God. Not how it actually reads...
     
  11. RipponRedeaux

    RipponRedeaux Well-Known Member

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    You had said that I was rendering that verse according to the NIV. I w clearly was not. I did not quote the NIV in full. I amplified and explained 1 Cor. 2:14. Do not fib Van. It does not help your misguided cause.

    Please tell me what the appreciable difference is between "things that come from the Spirit of God" and "things of the Spirit of God." There is no difference.
    What's the difference between "death of starvation" and "death from starvation"?
    How about telling me the difference between "of the tribe of Benjamin" and "of the tribe of Benjamin"?

    Of the Spirit and comes from the Spirit mean the same thing. There is no alteration of the message.
     
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  12. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Did I say RR quoted the NIV. Nope for the second time. Duh
    Did RR use the same bogus phrase of the NIV? You bet
    Does RR fib? You bet, twice is the snippet quoted above alone!
    1) According does not mean "quote in full" or "amplified and explained." It means consistent with, and it was as the phrases were identical.
    2) Did RR misrepresent 1 Corinthians 2:14 by adding "that come" to his presentation? You be
    3) Special Note, the claim RR does not Fib obvious is also a fib.
     
  13. RipponRedeaux

    RipponRedeaux Well-Known Member

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    Waiting for a reply from Van. He is avoiding direct questions.
     
    #13 RipponRedeaux, Jul 4, 2023
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 9, 2023
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  14. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    I think you are missing the point of Matthew 13. The disciples had been granted (by God) to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven.

    Jesus tells His disciples why He speaks in parables in v13.. “because while seeing they do not see, while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand”

    They are in that condition already, according to Jesus. Jesus is using the parables as an analogy for the disciples to help them understand God has chosen them to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven.

    There is nothing here about salvation or coming into a right relationship with God through faith in Christ. This is for the benefit of the disciples to prepare them for ministry after His death, burial and resurrection.

    peace to you
     
  15. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    It has just occurred to be that in this misguided attempt to disprove one aspect of the doctrines of grace (spiritual inability) the OP has proven another aspect (unconditional election)

    If Jesus is deliberately withholding information that might result in these folks seeing, hearing, understanding and then coming into a right relationship with God based on their innate spiritual abilities, then…..

    …..Jesus is choosing who will be saved and who will not…..

    peace to you
     
  16. RipponRedeaux

    RipponRedeaux Well-Known Member

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    You be?
    You had said that 1 Cor. 2:14 was rewritten by the NIV. That's absurd.

    It is perfectly legitimate for the NIV to phrase it "things that come from the Spirit of God." It means the very same thing as things of the Spirit of God. There is no appreciable difference.
    He died of starvation.
    He died from starvation.
    No difference in meaning.

    He is from the tribe of Benjamin.
    He is of the tribe of Benjamin.
    No difference in meaning.

    Of the Spirit and comes from the Spirit mean the very same thing.

    The subject under discussion deals with Greek Genitives. It is dealt with in chapter 5 of my prize book How To Choose A Translation For All Its Worth.

    Philippines 3:10
    Is it participation in his sufferings or fellowship of his sufferings?

    Philippians 2:1
    Is it fellowship with the Spirit or sharing in the Spirit?

    Philemon 6

    Is it in the faith, of your faith or that comes from your faith?

    As a non-translator you have to respect the decisions of the translators wherever they land on the matter.
     
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  17. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    I think you are avoiding the fact Jesus spoke in parables in order to fulfill prophecy. Duh

    Note what Matthew 13 says would happen if he did not speak in parables! They would understand! So all this "they were in that condition (unable to understand) already" is nonsense and indicates you did not actually study that part of the chapter.
     
  18. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    You be = you bet. Sorry that typo was so confusing for you. :)
    I did not just say, I demonstrated the rewrite added "that come" which is not in the text. "the things" does not mean the same as the things that come.

    Instead of "the things" of the Spirit of God, how about I do as the NIV does, without italics to identify the addition, and offer the spiritual solid food (meat) of the Spirit of God.
     
    #18 Van, Jul 5, 2023
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2023
  19. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Duh LOL taint so

    You have proven God choses who will be saved based in His will.

    DUH

    peace to you
     
  20. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    I think you are avoiding the fact Jesus spoke in parables in order to fulfill prophecy. Duh

    Note what Matthew 13 says would happen if he did not speak in parables! They would understand! So all this "they were in that condition (unable to understand) already" is nonsense and indicates you did not actually study that part of the chapter.
    Matthew 13:14-15
    “And in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,
    ‘YOU SHALL KEEP ON LISTENING, BUT SHALL NOT UNDERSTAND;
    AND YOU SHALL KEEP ON LOOKING, BUT SHALL NOT PERCEIVE;
    FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL,
    WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR,
    AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES,
    OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT SEE WITH THEIR EYES,
    HEAR WITH THEIR EARS,
    UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART, AND RETURN,
    AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.
    ’​
     
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