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Featured The Penal Substitutionary Satisfaction by Jesus Christ in "The Council of Peace" from Eternity Past.

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Alan Gross, Jul 4, 2023.

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  1. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I agree the idea of forgiveness accomplished being Christ paying the penalty for our sins instead of us is not actually in the Bible but rather an idea men derived from it. They were wrong.

    That said, I DO believe that Christ died for our sins, became a curse for us, not knowing sin was made sin for us, and in Him we escape the wrath to come.
     
    #21 JonC, Jul 5, 2023
  2. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Show me Egypt's stone on the breastplate of the high priest, and I'll agree with you.
     
    #22 Aaron, Jul 5, 2023
  3. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Hogwash.

    Propitiation means the appeasement of wrath, not the abatement of wrath.
     
    #23 Aaron, Jul 5, 2023
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  4. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    ...said the doublespeak poster boy. :Laugh
     
    #24 Aaron, Jul 5, 2023
  5. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Wrath cannot be appeased. It is either experienced or avoided in some way.

    Pagans believed gods could be appeased, with the result being that wrath would be avoided. But it is impossible to appease wrath as wrath is not an entity to be appeased (just as it is impossible to punish sins as sins are not things that can be punished).
     
    #25 JonC, Jul 5, 2023
  6. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    We don't.
     
    #26 Aaron, Jul 5, 2023
  7. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No. I'm just saying that words have meanings. Where you insist that God invented new meanings for existing words, I believe that God communicated to man through existing words using their actual meanings.
     
    #27 JonC, Jul 5, 2023
  8. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    This is utter nonsense.
     
    #28 Aaron, Jul 5, 2023
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  9. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    LOL, here we go again. One only needs to cite your definition of "substitute."
     
    #29 Aaron, Jul 5, 2023
  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No. It is a fact. Words actually have meaning.

    ANE paganism held that people could manipulate gods by offering sacrifices in hopes that they would perform for men (by giving a good crop, by withholding wrath, whatever).

    Wrath itself is not a thing to be appeased. It is an emotion (it means intense anger).

    Likewise, sins cannot be punished because they are not things upon which one can chastise. Sinners, on the other hand, can experience the consequences of sin and the wicked can be punished.

    You need to learn English more better. :Laugh
     
    #30 JonC, Jul 5, 2023
  11. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Was the blood sprinkled on the Mercy Seat sprinkled there to purify or satisfy?
     
    #31 Aaron, Jul 5, 2023
  12. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    LOL. The amazing thing is you think this an educated post. :Roflmao
     
    #32 Aaron, Jul 5, 2023
  13. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    I repeat the question...
     
    #33 Aaron, Jul 5, 2023
  14. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    My definition? No, I offered Athanasius' definition (medical substitution) and Aquinas' definition (satisfaction as substitution). Your argument is with those men. I said I prefer "representation", although it is more than representation because it includes substitution in terms of One under the curse for the benefit of humanity.

    I'm sure you are aware that even in today's legal arena it is used this way (one representing many in proxy is called "representative substitution").

    Oh wait... Never mind. I'm sure you are not aware because you wear blinders.
     
    #34 JonC, Jul 5, 2023
  15. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No. It is a legitimate and factual post. It is educational, but not educated (just like one does not graduate high school but is graduated).

    Your command of the English language is, like always,....eh.... enlightening. :Laugh:Laugh:Roflmao:Roflmao
     
    #35 JonC, Jul 5, 2023
  16. Arthur King

    Arthur King Active Member

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    You haven't really said anything. Why is the wrath appeased?

    In my example, when the payment is made to fix the car, the owner of the car may say his wrath is appeased. But he never exercised any wrath.

    By "appeased" do you specifically mean that the wrath is exhausted? Is your definition of propitiation "wrath exhaustion"?
     
    #36 Arthur King, Jul 5, 2023
  17. Arthur King

    Arthur King Active Member

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    You are not in any way exiled from paradise and the presence of God?

    You won't experience physical death?

    You never experience toil at work?

    You never experience strife in your marriage?

    These are all punishments for sin. And we experience them. Jesus' death on the cross does not take them away. Because the function of Jesus' death is not so that we avoid death, but so that we participate in his death and resurrection.
     
    #37 Arthur King, Jul 5, 2023
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  18. Arthur King

    Arthur King Active Member

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    Completely depends on what you mean by "satisfy." Again, if someone does $1,000 to my car, and then pays me $5,000 in compensation, I have no problem saying my wrath was satisfied. I am angry until I have means to fix what was broken in the offense.

    At no point am I exhausting anger on someone or something. The problem is, when penal substitution says "wrath was satisfied" they mean exhausted, vented. They mean displaced aggression / displaced punishment.

    Jesus pays our debt of obedience. Our disobedience is a lack (debt) of obedience. Jesus pays it.

    All of us, by our disobedience, put Jesus to death on the cross. Jesus willingly suffered our disobedience against him out of obedience to the Father. He obediently suffered all our disobedient acts. On the cross, all of our disobedience only serves to testify his obedience to the Father. His obedience pays our debt of disobedience.
     
    #38 Arthur King, Jul 5, 2023
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  19. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    You're right in two ways. First, this is tantamount to an admission that the Mercy Seat needs no purification. That is correct. God's glory was there between the cherubim. It was pure.

    Second, you halt at the definition, because only by skewing the words can you make your case.

    The Mercy Seat, aka, the seat of propitiation, is sprinkled with the blood of the sin sacrifice on the Day of Atonement.

    It was not for purification, but for satisfaction. The satisfaction of justice. Penalty.
     
    #39 Aaron, Jul 5, 2023
  20. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    I am raised up and seated in heavenly places in Him. Ephesians 2:6

    As I told you before, that has yet to be seen. Some saints won't. And for saints, it's not death, but sleep.

    Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, - 1 Corinthians 15:51

    He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. - Matthew 9:24

    And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. - John 11:26 KJV
    ​
    Believest thou this? You obviously do not.

    No, these are not punishments of sin, but the dust and ashes thereof.

    Death is the wages of sin. And whosoever liveth and believeth in Christ shall never die. Believest thou this? Again, you obviously do not.

    Since it's not the death of the body, which is merely sleep in the case of the saints, from which we're spared, what death is it?
     
    #40 Aaron, Jul 5, 2023
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