It is my stated view that God rules over his creation providentially. That fact is on display on every page of scripture from Ge 3.
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Was it the Choice of God That You Were Born Into the World
- Thread starter JD731
- Start date
It is my stated view that God rules over his creation providentially. That fact is on display on every page of scripture from Ge 3.
KenH
Well-Known Member
To deny that God is sovereign over what He created is either outright unbelief or some form of Deism.
The word sovereignty is not a Bible word nor is it a Bible concept. If God wanted to present himself as sovereign he could have. He did want to and so he didn't. You are deceived.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Like I said, I understand you are passionate about your views. I don’t expect to convince you but rather attempt to get you o understand why we believe what we do and acknowledge our views are based on our understanding of scripture.
Many times these debates gets personal especially when folks pretend to know others motivations and attack their integrity.
BTW, it really doesn’t “help” that you haven’t gotten “likes”. I have found a variety of opinions on this board, agreeing and disagreeing depending on the topic.
peace to you
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
That is an astonishing statement. Beginning in Genesis, God created mankind in His image and then gave them dominion over the earth.
The sovereignty of God is certainly a consistent theme throughout scripture.
You are truly deceived.
peace to you
KenH
Well-Known Member
All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. (Psalms 139:16)
The LORD works out everything for his own ends – even the wicked for a day of disaster. (Proverbs 16:4)
In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps. (Proverbs 16:9)
A man's steps are directed by the LORD. How then can anyone understand his own way? (Proverbs 20:24)
The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD; he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases. (Proverbs 21:1)
All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him: "What have you done?" (Daniel 4:35)
Now listen, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business and make money." Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. Instead, you ought to say, "If it is the Lord's will, we will live and do this or that." (James 4:13-15)
Wow. Considering what you’ve posted, not surprised
Brethren lets cut to the chase... Naysayers like JD are a dime a dozen... Eternal Salvation is 100% God... Brother Glen
Romans 8: 28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
? Jesus of Nazareth ?
Back to the topic of the thread.
Some irrefutable facts.
1) The size of a family is often controlled by family planning and birth control. This practice takes the decision of how many are born out of the hand of God and puts it into the hand of man. It proves without a doubt that God’s natural laws can be manipulated. This fact demonstrates that God is not acting in sovereignty in this matter by allowing this practice.
2) Logic and reason and common sense tells us that it is much more important for one to be chosen of God to be saved before the foundation of the Earth because the gospel of Jesus Christ has no power to save those who are not so chosen. Therefore election is the foundational teaching of this religious system.
3) The fact that those who believe and teach this doctrine cannot point anyone to a scripture where God affirms their personal election but must point to their own persona shows that this is a works religion. Many will say they give God all the glory for their salvation and this is evidence of their personal election.
This is a review of some points I have made.
Some irrefutable facts.
1) The size of a family is often controlled by family planning and birth control. This practice takes the decision of how many are born out of the hand of God and puts it into the hand of man. It proves without a doubt that God’s natural laws can be manipulated. This fact demonstrates that God is not acting in sovereignty in this matter by allowing this practice.
2) Logic and reason and common sense tells us that it is much more important for one to be chosen of God to be saved before the foundation of the Earth because the gospel of Jesus Christ has no power to save those who are not so chosen. Therefore election is the foundational teaching of this religious system.
3) The fact that those who believe and teach this doctrine cannot point anyone to a scripture where God affirms their personal election but must point to their own persona shows that this is a works religion. Many will say they give God all the glory for their salvation and this is evidence of their personal election.
This is a review of some points I have made.
your points are wrong
Abortions of millions after conception and before birth is not an idea of God, do you think? This is a method of birth control and you are guessing that it is God in his sovereignty who is doing the controlling????. Who is really controlling who is being born?
Abortion is an abomination before God
those who have been aborted will rise up in the judgement as a testimony to the wickedness of man’s heart and God will judge rightly
KenH
Well-Known Member
"The doctrine[that God is completely sovereign and that man does not have free will] contradicts the religious tradition that God does not decree evil or that he does not cause evil. Of course God does not make decrees against his other decrees. Since God is not insane, he has only one will, one desire. However, there is no problem for him to issue a decree that causes his creatures to violate his precepts. Whereas decrees are declarations of intentions about things that he would cause to happen, precepts are declarations of definitions, not intentions, and do not overlap with the decrees. It must be true that God decrees and causes events that are contrary to his precepts; otherwise, there could be no evil, but there is indeed evil. Therefore, God must be the metaphysical author of sin and evil.
This does not mean that God himself is evil. To metaphysically cause evil and to morally commit evil are two different things. One is a matter of ability to cause something, while the other is a matter of conformity to a principle. The Bible teaches that God is the one who defines right and wrong, and that sin is a transgression of God's law. Therefore, for God to commit evil by causing evil – for this to be bad or wrong – he must declare a moral law that forbids himself to decree or to cause evil, that is, to decree or to cause his creatures to transgress his law. There is no biblical basis to suppose that God has declared such a law against himself. Indeed, the Bible teaches that all that God says and does are right and good. If he says it, it must be true. If he does it, it must be good. Therefore, since God is sovereign and there is evil, God must be the cause of evil, and since he is the cause of evil, it must be right and good for him to be the cause of evil.
There is no divine law that says God would be wrong if he were to be the cause of evil. Why, then, do men assume that it would be evil for God to be the author of sin? What law would God transgress? He would transgress the law of men, or what men have imposed upon him to define what a righteous God must or must not do. This is the sinister truth behind the religious tradition that says God is not the author of sin, for if he were to be such, it would mean that he has transgressed a law that men has declared against him. The necessary conclusion is that the doctrine that God is not the author of sin, or that it is blasphemy and heresy to say that he is, is itself the real blasphemy and heresy. Unless God is the author of sin and evil, he is not completely sovereign, and he is not God. Therefore, to deny that God is the author of sin and evil is to deny God.
The Bible teaches that God's decrees and actions are always right and good. Since he is completely sovereign, and there is evil in this universe, this means that he is the one who decrees and causes evil in this universe. But since his decrees and actions are always right and good, then this means that it is right and good that he is the one who decrees and causes evil in this universe. The very fact that he decrees and causes evil means that it is right and good for him to do so. There is no authority or standard higher than God by which to condemn him. If he thinks that it is good for him to cause evil, then it is good for him to cause evil.
This does not mean that evil is good, which would be a contradiction. Sin is defined as a transgression of God's moral law, and when we say that God is the author of sin, we are saying that God is the metaphysical cause of a creature's transgression of God's moral law. God transgresses no moral law, since there is no moral law against what he does, but he causes the creature to transgress. Morality relates to moral law. But there is no moral law against sovereign metaphysical power. It is right and good for God to metaphysically cause evil, just because he does it, and because he has not declared himself wrong for doing it. It is wrong for man to morally commit evil, because God has declared man wrong for doing it, although it is God who metaphysically causes man to do it. Therefore, God remains righteous, and the sinner remains evil. The distinctions are clear. There is no paradox or contradiction, and also no biblical or logical basis for objection against the doctrine.
Does this make God a tyrant? If the word simply means, "an absolute ruler," then of course God is a tyrant. And since he is the sole moral authority, the very fact that he is a tyrant means that he ought to be one, that it is good and just for him to be one. The negative connotations of the word apply only to human beings, since no man is worthy of absolute authority or capable to wield it. But God is "an absolute ruler" – that is what it means to be God."
- excerpt from Vicent Cheung's Systematic Theology
This does not mean that God himself is evil. To metaphysically cause evil and to morally commit evil are two different things. One is a matter of ability to cause something, while the other is a matter of conformity to a principle. The Bible teaches that God is the one who defines right and wrong, and that sin is a transgression of God's law. Therefore, for God to commit evil by causing evil – for this to be bad or wrong – he must declare a moral law that forbids himself to decree or to cause evil, that is, to decree or to cause his creatures to transgress his law. There is no biblical basis to suppose that God has declared such a law against himself. Indeed, the Bible teaches that all that God says and does are right and good. If he says it, it must be true. If he does it, it must be good. Therefore, since God is sovereign and there is evil, God must be the cause of evil, and since he is the cause of evil, it must be right and good for him to be the cause of evil.
There is no divine law that says God would be wrong if he were to be the cause of evil. Why, then, do men assume that it would be evil for God to be the author of sin? What law would God transgress? He would transgress the law of men, or what men have imposed upon him to define what a righteous God must or must not do. This is the sinister truth behind the religious tradition that says God is not the author of sin, for if he were to be such, it would mean that he has transgressed a law that men has declared against him. The necessary conclusion is that the doctrine that God is not the author of sin, or that it is blasphemy and heresy to say that he is, is itself the real blasphemy and heresy. Unless God is the author of sin and evil, he is not completely sovereign, and he is not God. Therefore, to deny that God is the author of sin and evil is to deny God.
The Bible teaches that God's decrees and actions are always right and good. Since he is completely sovereign, and there is evil in this universe, this means that he is the one who decrees and causes evil in this universe. But since his decrees and actions are always right and good, then this means that it is right and good that he is the one who decrees and causes evil in this universe. The very fact that he decrees and causes evil means that it is right and good for him to do so. There is no authority or standard higher than God by which to condemn him. If he thinks that it is good for him to cause evil, then it is good for him to cause evil.
This does not mean that evil is good, which would be a contradiction. Sin is defined as a transgression of God's moral law, and when we say that God is the author of sin, we are saying that God is the metaphysical cause of a creature's transgression of God's moral law. God transgresses no moral law, since there is no moral law against what he does, but he causes the creature to transgress. Morality relates to moral law. But there is no moral law against sovereign metaphysical power. It is right and good for God to metaphysically cause evil, just because he does it, and because he has not declared himself wrong for doing it. It is wrong for man to morally commit evil, because God has declared man wrong for doing it, although it is God who metaphysically causes man to do it. Therefore, God remains righteous, and the sinner remains evil. The distinctions are clear. There is no paradox or contradiction, and also no biblical or logical basis for objection against the doctrine.
Does this make God a tyrant? If the word simply means, "an absolute ruler," then of course God is a tyrant. And since he is the sole moral authority, the very fact that he is a tyrant means that he ought to be one, that it is good and just for him to be one. The negative connotations of the word apply only to human beings, since no man is worthy of absolute authority or capable to wield it. But God is "an absolute ruler" – that is what it means to be God."
- excerpt from Vicent Cheung's Systematic Theology
atpollard
Well-Known Member
… not a reformed doctrine. Try to locate this teaching in the Westminster Confession of Faith or the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith or any other Reformed source of doctrinal teaching.
When the point you are refuting is not actually what the opposing side is claiming, that is the definition of a “Straw man fallacy”.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
What is evil?
Is it even a THING that God can have created it?
What is the unit of measure for “evil”?
Does “evil” even exist in the sense that God and man and faith and length exist? How would we define it and quantify or qualify it so that someone could identify it if they encountered it?
KenH
Well-Known Member
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
A sloppy translation (now, not 400 years ago) since “evil” (in the modern definition, not the original ‘bad events’) is not the opposite of “peace”. The verse is employing pairs of opposites to indicate “all things” … but EVIL is not a THING, is it?
KenH
Well-Known Member
Is GOOD a THING?
a.t., will you go on record in your next post as believing someone whom God has not particularly chosen before the creation of the world to be saved from their sins can at some point and under certain circumstances be saved anyway? And would you say that someone who has been chosen for salvation can ultimately die unsaved and be lost and go to hell?
Is that what you are trying to tell us now after the Reformed have told us for years that neither of these two scenarios can happen?$