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What Love is This?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Jul 10, 2023.

  1. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    John uses agapao (G25) to express a different idea than when he uses phieo (G5368). Both are verbs that mean to love another. Philo comes from an adjective (G5384) and has the meaning of loving someone as a friend or family member, i.e. brotherly love. Families share everything, so the nuanced meaning is to be kindly toward another and willing to share with them what you have. So rather than exercising the sloppy eisegesis of claiming there was no intended difference in meaning, let’s let the word usage speak for itself.

    Lets look at a few verses from John where he uses phileo rather than agapao.

    John 5:20, For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing; and the Father will show Him greater works than these, so that you will marvel.

    So the Father "brotherly loves" the Son and treats Him as family, sharing with Him all that the Father has been doing.

    John 11:3, So the sisters sent word to Him, saying, “Lord, behold, he whom You love is sick.

    Here in the view of the sisters, Jesus loved his close associates as members of his family, thus ... he whom You love as family is sick. Now we will learn at the end of the book that Jesus also displayed agapao love by laying down His life for His present and future "family" that includes Lazarus.

    John 11:36, So the Jews were saying, “See how He loved him!

    In the view of those seeing Jesus weep, they understood that Jesus loved Lazarus like a lost brother. And they were right! Too bad the translation does not present the full message of God, i.e. "See how Jesus loved him as family."

    John 12:25, He who loves his life loses it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it to life eternal.

    Contextually, he who is friendly toward his or her life in the world will lose it, but he who hates his life in this world will keep it to life eternal. The idea is not that we should not love ourselves, i.e. love your neighbor as yourself, but friendship with the world makes us enemies of God.

    John 15:19, If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you.

    Same usage of “phileo” referring to a relationship (friendship) between the elect and the world.

    John 16:27, for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me and have believed that I came forth from the Father.

    Here, the Father loves us as His children, because (1) we have loved Jesus as a brother, and (2) we believed that Jesus is the Christ sent from God.

    John 20:2, So she ran and came to Simon Peter and to the other disciple whom Jesus loved, and said to them, “They have taken away the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid Him.”

    Here we have Mary’s perspective, Jesus loved John as a brother, which is not to say Jesus did not also love John to the greatest extent, i.e. He died for John and all mankind.

    John 21:15, So when they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love (agapao) Me more than these?” He said to Him, “Yes, Lord; You know that I love (phileo) You.” He said to him, “Tend My lambs.”

    Here, some mistakenly claim John is using the words interchangeably, but nothing could be further from the truth. Peter loves Jesus as a brother, but is not prepared to die for Jesus. And that distinction is essential to the message of God.

    John 21:16, He said to him again a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you love (agapao) Me?” He said to Him, “Yes, Lord; You know that I love (phileo) You.” He said to him, “Shepherd My sheep.”

    Peter is still not prepared to die for Jesus. And Peter is distraught; because He does not think his all too human love is enough for his Lord and Master.

    And now we come to one of the most powerful and compassionate verses in all scripture, and one which some seek to obscure.

    John 21:17, He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love (phielo) Me?” Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, “Do you love Me?” And he said to Him, “Lord, You know all things; You know that I love (phileo) You.” Jesus *said to him, “Tend My sheep.

    Rather than asking Peter if he loves Jesus with the greatest, willing to die for, love, Jesus asks if Peter loves Jesus as a brother or friend? But note that this human love, imperfect and falling short of our goal, was acceptable to God. Jesus will accept us where we are, warts and all.
     
  2. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    What if our love for God is not perfect, but flawed as we were flawed in our fallen state? Does God accept our love and devotion to Christ, just as we are, or should we remove that song from our hymnal?

    Just as I am - without one plea,
    But that Thy blood was shed for me,
    And that Thou bidst me come to Thee,
    -O Lamb of God, I come!

    Just as I am - and waiting not
    To rid my soul of one dark blot,
    To Thee, whose blood can cleanse each spot,
    -O Lamb of God, I come!

    Just as I am - though toss'd about
    With many a conflict, many a doubt,
    Fightings and fears within, without,
    -O Lamb of God, I come!

    Just as I am - poor, wretched, blind;
    Sight, riches, healing of the mind,
    Yea, all I need, in Thee to find,
    -O Lamb of God, I come!

    Just as I am - Thou wilt receive,
    Wilt welcome, pardon, cleanse, relieve;
    Because Thy promise I believe,
    -O Lamb of God, I come!

    Just as I am - Thy love unknown
    Has broken every barrier down;
    Now to be Thine, yea, Thine alone,
    -O Lamb of God, I come!

    Just as I am - of that free love
    The breadth, length, depth, and height to prove
    Here for a season, then above,
    -O Lamb of God, I come
     
  3. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    Well as a previous song leader for 35 years, I say we keep it... This song is not about us being perfect but by The Lamb of God who is perfect... None will ever reach perfection, now surely didn't think you could?... Brother Glen:)
     
  4. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    If we are convicted of our sin by our indwelt Spirit, all born anew believers KNOW we think and do what we should not and omit to do what we should. However, we also KNOW that in Christ, as a new Creature, we have been made perfect.

    However, let us go back to the time before we were made perfect, as wretched lost sinners seeking God, looking for the narrow way that leads to eternal life. Did we have to fix ourselves, stop cussing and smoking and giving in to our fleshly desires? Nope
    Jesus takes us just as we are, and through progressive sanctification leads us to becoming more Christ-like and more effective witnesses as ambassadors of Christ, presenting the need for reconciliation.
     
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