Cessationism

[Jeffrey Carr]

The doctrine of Cessationism, that is, the Sign Gifts were temporary, has come under a lot of criticism in recent times. My question is, can there be made a case from Scripture & history to support Cessationism?
Your thoughts.

 

[canadyjd]

The doctrine of Cessationism, that is, the Sign Gifts were temporary, has come under a lot of criticism in recent times. My question is, can there be made a case from Scripture & history to support Cessationism?
Your thoughts.

I am not an expert on the topic, but my understanding it is primarily based on 1 Corinthians 13 where a list of Spiritual gifts that are said to “cease” when the perfect comes. That has never been definitive for me.

There has always been many antidotal stories from various places around the world of visions leading people to Christian ministries and other such Spiritual gifts.

Tongues were always referring to known languages that were miraculously spoken to proclaim the gospel.

Bottom line, the “evidence” of miraculous “gifts” seems to be scarce…..

…unless you realize the greatest miracle has always been sinners being saved by God’s grace. No other miracle lasts forever, as Paul said, they cease.

peace to you

 

[Salty]

I trust this is not too far off topic:
But for those who insist on speaking in tongues -
I always ask if they follow the rules as stated in I Corinthians
For many years, I worked in Christian Radio, and I have visited
many Pentecostal churches - and never once, while those
"speaking in tongues" were they following the rules!

List of rules:

 

[Jeffrey Carr]

I am not an expert on the topic, but my understanding it is primarily based on 1 Corinthians 13 where a list of Spiritual gifts that are said to “cease” when the perfect comes. That has never been definitive for me.

There has always been many antidotal stories from various places around the world of visions leading people to Christian ministries and other such Spiritual gifts.

Tongues were always referring to known languages that were miraculously spoken to proclaim the gospel.

Bottom line, the “evidence” of miraculous “gifts” seems to be scarce…..

…unless you realize the greatest miracle has always been sinners being saved by God’s grace. No other miracle lasts forever, as Paul said, they cease.

peace to you

Yes, I agree that 1 Cor 13 has its challenges, however, I think a case can be made that, "that which is perfect" could mean the completed canon of the New Testament. Having said that, I would not be dogmatic about it. I believe a case can be made for Cessationism without it.

 

[Jeffrey Carr]

I trust this is not too far off topic:
But for those who insist on speaking in tongues -
I always ask if they follow the rules as stated in I Corinthians
For many years, I worked in Christian Radio, and I have visited
many Pentecostal churches - and never once, while those
"speaking in tongues" were they following the rules!

List of rules:

Yes, I had 20 years in the Pentecostal Movement I certainly saw what was called 'speaking in tongues' misused.

 

[Marooncat79]

Interesting

 

[37818]

The doctrine of Cessationism, that is, the Sign Gifts were temporary, has come under a lot of criticism in recent times. My question is, can there be made a case from Scripture & history to support Cessationism?
Your thoughts.

A literal reading of 1 Corinthians 13:8-10. Only two gifts are spoken of being in part. And only what is said to be in part is said to be done away. See James 1:17 regarding being good and perfect, but nothing about being in part.

There are more arguments.

 

[Van]

The doctrine of Cessationism, that is, the Sign Gifts were temporary, has come under a lot of criticism in recent times. My question is, can there be made a case from Scripture & history to support Cessationism?
Your thoughts.

Ephesians 2:19-20
So then you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household,
having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone,

Here we see the idea that the church has been build on the foundation of apostles and prophets, thus suggesting the signs and wonder gifts used to authenticate their message is not longer needed.

In Ephesians 4:11, we see the remaining leaders given to the church are evangelists, pastors, and teachers, are presenting the existing word of God authenticated long ago by miracles.

And note 2 Thessalonians 2:8-10 which tells us that before Christ's return, someone acting for Satan will perform false signs and wonders. Again, this suggests their absence in the present age.

 

[Piper]

Not an expert, but I have studied it a little.

One prominent Westminster Theological Seminary, a very conservative place, R. Gaffin, uses 1 Cor 13 and says that the time of the apostles was a time when signs were needed, as it was a time of change, huge change. But since Christianity was established as a serious force in the world, those signs were no longer needed.

Some, and I think Gaffin uses this too, use 2 Cor 12 to say that it was a sign gift attached to the apostles. No more apostles, no more sign gifts.

12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

 

[Piper]

Yes, I had 20 years in the Pentecostal Movement I certainly saw what was called 'speaking in tongues' misused.

The belief that Speaking in Tongues is "Initial Evidence" (a kind of technical term, meaning that if you don't, you don't have the Spirit) is prominent in Pentecostal realms. There is a book called "Initial Evidence" by McGee that shows it to be incorrect.

https://www.amazon.com/Initial-Evidence-Historical-Perspectives-Pentecostal/dp/1556357354

 

[Jerome]

Other scriptures:

2 Corinthians 12:12

"Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds."

Hebrews 2:3-4

"...so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost..."

 

[Jeffrey Carr]

Thankyou everyone for your thoughts.

 

[kyredneck]

Thankyou everyone for your thoughts.

Miracles and signs are generally confined to three periods of time. These are the times of Moses and Joshua, Elijah and Elisha, and Christ and the Apostles. It doesn't require one to be a Bible scholar to make an honest assessment that yes, there has been a cessation of miracles and signs, and some of these 'gifts' were for the purpose of signs, prophecy and tongues being a couple of them, both to the unbelieving and believing.

 

[Salty]

Miracles and signs are generally confined to three periods of time. These are the times of Moses and Joshua, Elijah and Elisha, and Christ and the Apostles. It doesn't require one to be a Bible scholar to make an honest assessment that yes, there has been a cessation of miracles and signs, and some of these 'gifts' were for the purpose of signs, prophecy and tongues being a couple of them, both to the unbelieving and believing.

KY- I do agree with you - but allow me to ask this question:
Why do so many (Denominations, churches, individuals, ect) believe that tongues is for this age? and for "bonus points" why do some believe you MUST speak in tongues to prove your salvation?

 

[kyredneck]

Why do so many (Denominations, churches, individuals, ect) believe that tongues is for this age?

I don't know. You tell me.

I watched a guy bunny hop, while gobbling like a turkey, from the back of the church (Church of God) building all the way to the front when I was a teenager. Made a lasting impression. One of the goofiest things I've ever seen.

and for "bonus points" why do some believe you MUST speak in tongues to prove your salvation?

As the article points out, misapplication of scripture.

 

[Jeffrey Carr]

Here in Australia, were have a Pentecostal group called "Revival Centers". They teach that you have to speak in tongues to be saved. This view is based on Acts 2:38, where the "Gift of the Holy Spirit" is said to be the Baptism in the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues. Therefore they teach that to be saved you have to repent, be baptised in water and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit with tongues.

 

[Alan Gross]

No more apostles, no more sign gifts.

And the 70. Luke 10:1-24. That's it from the record.

Other scriptures:

Danial 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy (Pentecost).

Mark 16:14-18; note the words, "they" and "them", because they are referring to the eleven. Verse 16 is essentially a parenthesis, where Jesus is giving His Great Commission statement and the "he", there, doesn't directly relate to the "they" and "them" of the rest of the passage.

14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

 

[37818]

They teach that you have to speak in tongues to be saved. This view is based on Acts 2:38, where the "Gift of the Holy Spirit" is said to be the Baptism in the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues.

1 Corinthians 12:29-30, ". . . Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? . . ."

 

[SATS PROF]

I don't know. You tell me.

I watched a guy bunny hop, while gobbling like a turkey, from the back of the church (Church of God) building all the way to the front when I was a teenager. Made a lasting impression. One of the goofiest things I've ever seen.



As the article points out, misapplication of scripture.

+++++++++++++++++

That is so funny Thanks. I care nothing about tongues, but deny that 1 Cor 13 teaches that it must stop. Blessings, Bill

 

[Salty]

I visited a IFB church one Sunday night in Germany (English-Speaking)
The pastor was Roy Grisby - and (I think) the church was Sembach Baptists Church,

At the end of the service, a lady was was saved. After a bit Pastor Grisby stated: that this salvation was due to Biblical speaking of tongues.

So, what are your thoughts so far????

So you want an explanation???

Okay, I will splain
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As I stated, this was a IFB church affiliated with Servicemen for Christ (Now Armed Forces Baptist Mission).
As I mentioned, I was in the service that evening - so I am NOT passing on second hand info.

Anyways - this was a "military" church - that is all the members were either military or family members (other than the pastor & his family)

This particular night - one member brought her landlady to church, and she translated the service to the landlady. Thru this translation - the landlady heard the gospel and was saved.

Based on that - is why Pastor Roy stated - that this was Spiritual speaking in tounges.

so - do you agree or disagree with Pastor Roy.