Featured Did Jesus die as payment we owe?

@DaveXR650 do you have any other verses you could share that clarify that point?

@JonC I really want to get this right. Could you share any verses that would support what you are saying and would not support it being a payment we owe? As its correct that the difference in what you are saying is that his payment is not something we owe? Or rather that he is not paying what we owe, but paying for us. Though he seems to be paying the very thing we owe, death, so its kind of hard to see your point I think. Could you also please share Lutheran, Traditional, etc. things I can look at that talk about what you are saying?

I think this is a hard one to really try to see. There is another post on this the forum that I think has a similar issue. The one on the "founding text for the doctrine of hell" we see on there that people are reading the comments by early Christians and coming up with two different views. It is true that when I first read those posts colored by what the OP said, I saw what he said, but when I later just read it and tried to not have any coloring in my mind, I did not see the early Christians as relating it to hell at all. I did not share on that post because I can't say I have a right answer, my point is just that it can be hard to read verses without the interpretation we have been told to see maybe.

JonC, I would like to see if you can comment on some of the things that I think also might point to it being a fine we paid. I am not decided on the issue as I want to get it right and so want to consider what you are saying. What all groups is it you say believe this, early Christians, Lutherans, you then also included traditional Christianity and Anabaptists, can you be specific as to who those are? The Russian Church? And who are Anabaptists, I thought they were just baptists?

When you say one group of reformers thought he died instead of us instead of for us, how are you sure that these words are not being used as synonyms to mean the same thing?

God uses people and does things in his providence, so it could also be that God used a group of men trained in judicial to bring out the judicial meaning of this issue maybe?

One thing that seems to speak to the judicial interpretation is:

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone." Matthew 23:23 KJV

So Jesus points out law, judgment, mercy, and faith. This seems to be the exact line of thought the judicial view holds. God gave a law, we transgressed it, so there is judgment, that our sins dserve death as the anger of God abides on those who sin, mercy, that God sent his son, faith, that faith is the medium God uses to work salvation in us. Could you speak on this point?

So I think one thing we all need to look at on this is the sacrifices of the law, and the passover. So, in the law the sins were placed on a goat, and a sacrifice was made by blood to redeem, is that correct? The passover is also that blood was used to redeem, though the part about sins seems absent?

So in the Old Testament God says that he redeemed his people out of Egypt. I am kind of confused on this, can anyone help me understand, so what was the payment, the killing of Egypts first born, or was it the lambs used to paint the door posts, or what was the payment?

When the Bible says:

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23 KJV

This seems to me, to carry the idea that because of the work we have done, our sin, we our due to be paid death. Would everyone agree with this? JonC are you saying that instead of death being God's sentence for breaking the law, that this death is rather the natural result of sin? I do not find it easy to know what you mean on some of these things. So we are due death... that seems confusing, because we are saying that death is a debt we owe. Any thoughts I am not sure where to go from here?

Jesus bore our sins, and became a curse for us, and died, why was this the payment if it wasn't God's wrath?

"And there shall cleave nought of the cursed thing to thine hand: that the LORD may turn from the fierceness of his anger, and shew thee mercy, and have compassion upon thee, and multiply thee, as he hath sworn unto thy fathers;" Deuteronomy 13:17 KJV

If we sin it is the fierceness of his anger on us right? When the Bible says

"Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:4 KJV

Doesn't it seem that it is saying the death is God's judgment on it? JonC does your point rely on death not being a judgment for sin? I am not sure, just trying to understand all this.

If death is not the judgment of God, then why does death occur, I mean its not something not in God's control, so then we are left trying to figure out why did Jesus have to die, why couldn't he just take our sins away? If it isn't to satisfy God's justice, why did Jesus have to suffer for sin? I do not see solidarity as being why he suffered for sin, or can you explain it more? Please actually explain things more, maybe it is I who am deficient, as I can't understand your short answers I am used to you giving.

How does this verse weigh in on this topic?

"By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament." Hebrews 7:22 KJV

Also,

"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." 2 Corinthians 5:21 KJV

Why did he have to be made sin if it wasn't to pay sin's cost? or is the cost of sin different than a sin debt?

@JonC I hope you will answer and help me at least understand what you are saying and how what you are saying works?

 

Could you elaborate, I do not see why Jesus' death can not pay for sin, and it only go to those who trust in him? Those who do not have faith in Jesus do not get the payment to their account, even though the payment is made available. How is this against it paying for sin of people? You are saying he did not pay for my specific sins, but he made a payment that can be put in place, I dont know if there is a difference in what you are saying that I can understand?

 

See this is interesting, I never looked at it that way, its like i felt it in my mind as a response to your saying this. I will admit that I always took the verse to say for everyone, not all kinds of people.

Is this we are discussing?

"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 John 2:2 KJV

Do you feel this translation is inaccurate, or just how people understand it? Why is there a problem with his death being for the sins of the whole world and only those who end up with faith in him are the ones who get it on their account as it were?

 

Isaiah 53 – (5) But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon Him; and with His stripes we are healed. (6) All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

I am not clear if Van and @JonC have the same view on this or not, but I feel like in these verses here that I am glad I checked what KenH was pointing to, that when it says the chastisement of our peace was upon Him, that seems to me to be saying the punishment of our peace was upon him, he took punishment for our peace... we deserved punishment right? I mean God's sentence of punishment will be on all those who do not trust in Jesus' death right?




Ok everyone, here is an important question, it seems like I am getting into a deep theological issue here, should I instead just put pause on this and read the whole Bible 3 times before going into this more? Though I still feel like I'd like JonC to explain what he is saying as I am not sure where else to get this view explained.

 

Deut 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.


I think this verse suggests or seems it could be used to clarify that death is the judgement and sentence passed by God for sin, not some natural occurrence, but if i use this word correctly, a penal punishment for sin. And Jesus took the chastisement of our peace.

@JonC seems to be saying that Jesus' death was not taking the publicy for us or instead of us. So i am trying to understand what his view is and sharing verses that seem to weigh on the issue. I am going he will speak more when he has time. I want to get this right which i feel like that means heading JonC out to try to understand.