Featured Did Jesus die as payment we owe?

Our sins are dealt with as "God is faithful to forgive" upon repentance. And those who do not repent and believe "remain in their sins" because they have "rejected the Light". They will perish due to their own actions (God will separate peoples as a shepherd separates sherp and goats, and those not "in Christ" will perish).

Please copy the part below that says Jesus paid our debt instead of us.

Hebrews 9 - 10

Now even the first covenant had regulations of divine worship and the earthly sanctuary. For there was a tabernacle prepared, the outer one, in which were the lampstand and the table and the sacred bread; this is called the holy place. Behind the second veil there was a tabernacle which is called the Holy of Holies, having a golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered on all sides with gold, in which was a golden jar holding the manna, and Aaron’s rod which budded, and the tables of the covenant; and above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat; but of these things we cannot now speak in detail.

Now when these things have been so prepared, the priests are continually entering the outer tabernacle performing the divine worship, but into the second, only the high priest enters once a year, not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the sins of the people committed in ignorance. The Holy Spirit is signifying this, that the way into the holy place has not yet been disclosed while the outer tabernacle is still standing, which is a symbol for the present time. Accordingly both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make the worshiper perfect in conscience, since they relate only to food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until a time of reformation.

But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it. For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives. Therefore even the first covenant was not inaugurated without blood.

For when every commandment had been spoken by Moses to all the people according to the Law, he took the blood of the calves and the goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, saying, “This is the blood of the covenant which God commanded you.” And in the same way he sprinkled both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry with the blood.

And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him

For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near. Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins? But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins year by year. For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says,
“Sacrifice and offering You have not desired,
But a body You have prepared for Me;

In whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You have taken no pleasure. “Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come
(In the scroll of the book it is written of Me)
To do Your will, O God.’ ” After saying above, “Sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You have not desired, nor have You taken pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the Law), then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will.” He takes away the first in order to establish the second.

By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time onward until His enemies be made a footstool for His feet. For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying, “This is the covenant that I will make with them After those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws upon their heart,
And on their mind I will write them,”

He then says, "And their sins and their lawless deeds
I will remember no more.” Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin.

Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful; and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.

For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God. But remember the former days, when, after being enlightened, you endured a great conflict of sufferings, partly by being made a public spectacle through reproaches and tribulations, and partly by becoming sharers with those who were so treated.

For you showed sympathy to the prisoners and accepted joyfully the seizure of your property, knowing that you have for yourselves a better possession and a lasting one.Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised. For yet in a very little while,
He who is coming will come, and will not delay. But My righteous one shall live by faith; And if he shrinks back, My soul has no pleasure in him. But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

 

This is what I mean. My beliefs are within orthodox Christianity and if you really had one degree in theology from a legitimate seminary you would know this.

The reason is that you would have been required to study that view. You would have read at least Bender, Church Dogmatics, and The Person and Work of Christ.

You don't have to believe my position - but you would not be completely ignorant of historical Christianity.

So I ask AGAIN, as you brought it up - in regards to theology you said you have two master degrees. What are they? What field of study? What seminary?

 

Holding on.

 

I am not saying that Penal Substitution Theory is unorthodox. I am saying that it is not the ONLY orthodox position. "Orthodox" does not mean "correct".

I did not say Penal Substitution Theory is some strange fire, or even that it is new.

I said it is relatively new in terms of the whole of Christian history. It did not exist for the most part of Christianity and even now it is a minority view.

It is, however, a majority view among evangelicals (Baptist, Methodist, and Presbyterian evangelicals...it is not the view among evangelical Lutherans, for example, as the Lutheran Church still holds to Satisfaction Theory).

That you confuse what I said with what I did not say is telling.

 

@Piper chose ad hominem. That's my weakness. I like to argue because I'm a grumpy old man. Also, I got off work at 4am and couldn't sleep (have to go in at 6am tomorrow). Adds to my grumpiness.

Tell you what, @Piper is pretty much done. I'll ignore him for awhile and we can discuss the topic.

I'd much rather discuss the Atonement with somebody willing than continue with Piper. At least for now.

What's your questions or concerns?

 

I agree that there is no forgiveness without the shedding of blood. I believe this points to Jesus Christ (I believe that the Old Covenant pointed to Jesus and redemption rather than being a list of rules for Jesus to follow....a rather significant presupposition, if you think about it).

The Bible talks about God dealing with sin, but only in one way when it comes to forgiveness. That way is repentance. The Bible specifically states that if one repents God is faithful to forgive sins.

We have to ask - what is repentance. Scripture tells us. It is obedience to God, turning from the flesh and to the Spirit, dying to the flesh and walking in the Spirit

The issue, then, is not having our "sin debt" paid but exactly how we come to repent.

Again, the Bible tells us how. God makes us "a new creation" gives us "a new heart", "puts His Spirit in us", and causes us to obey Him.


There is nothing in Hebrews 9-10 that speaks of Jesus paying our sin debt.

 

No. There is no forgiveness without the shedding of blood. Christ had to die on a Roman cross under the curse in order for man to be forgiven.

Now, if man could have repented - could have died to the flesh and been made alive in the Spirit - without Christ's death then you may have a point. But man cannot. This is a major focus of Scripture.

God became man in the Person of Jesus. Jesus was obedient to the Father. He was made sin, became a curse for us. He is sinless, but He suffered the wages of sin for our salvation. And He is the Life. He is the Life giving Spirit. It is only in Him that repentance is possible.

By "repentance" I don't mean refraining from one sinful actions. I mean repentance biblically - dying to the flesh and being made alive in Christ. It is a rebirth - born from above.

And for this to happen Jesus had to suffer under our sin, our curse. He had to come under the bondage of sin and death in order to free us from its bonds.

 

I would say Adam was influenced by Satan. When we are tempted it is by our own desires, but Satan tempts us (in the case of Adam you could say through Eve). Adam and Eve sinned knowingly. Deception does not negate responsibility. Eve desired to be like God in some way.

I wouldn't say the curse is a natural occurrence but instead a product of sin. Sin is unnatural.

Sin is not stronger than God. That isn't the issue. Sin is stronger than we are. This is why Jesus had to save us. And He had victory over sin and death.

The Old Covenant had a blessing and a curse. We inherit the curse. Jesus inherits the blessing.

@Arthur King offered a wonderful post explaining what I have been a bit inept at illustrating:

Restitution, Retribution, and Atonement

Read the OP. It explains the difference between Penal Substitution and traditional Christianity better than I can.