37818
Well-Known Member
Nowhere are the 15th or 21st of the Passover week referred to by the term Sabbath. Now the seventh day Sabbath during the Passover is a high Sabbath.
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It was not a Sabbath day
- Thread starter 37818
- Start date
You are making stuff up as you go. You have a story of a high Sabbath and two Sabbaths as if the scriptures have them as a major theme. But the scriptures do not talk about them. What is a high day? You will need to go to an extra biblical source to find out.
Here is the one scripture that mentions a high day, but does not explain it.
John 19:31
The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
John said “that Sabbath was a high day,” not that the high day was a Sabbath.
This high day, whatever it was, is not a major subject of the gospel writers, mentioned only by John because of the reason, he said they did not want them to still be on the cross when the Sabbath began. It was a high day.
John 12:1-2
1 Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead.
2 There they made him a supper; and Martha served: but Lazarus was one of them that sat at the table with him.
Jesus likely came into Bethany from the home of Zacchaeus sometime near six PM. The supper would have been prepare after 6 and would have been on the beginning of the first day of John’s six days.
John 12:12
On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem,
The next day means literally the next 12 hour day. This is the first day of the six days before the Passover. Mark counts them down day by day. The sixth day is Friday, beginning at 6 PM.
There. Is one reason only for Jesus a few days earlier to have said the following words.
John 11:9
Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.
It was to condition our thinking to understand that the word day is the daylight hours in certain contexts as opposed to night and the darkness. It is important to our understanding the events of these six days.
1 Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead.
2 There they made him a supper; and Martha served: but Lazarus was one of them that sat at the table with him.
Jesus likely came into Bethany from the home of Zacchaeus sometime near six PM. The supper would have been prepare after 6 and would have been on the beginning of the first day of John’s six days.
John 12:12
On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem,
The next day means literally the next 12 hour day. This is the first day of the six days before the Passover. Mark counts them down day by day. The sixth day is Friday, beginning at 6 PM.
There. Is one reason only for Jesus a few days earlier to have said the following words.
John 11:9
Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.
It was to condition our thinking to understand that the word day is the daylight hours in certain contexts as opposed to night and the darkness. It is important to our understanding the events of these six days.
timtofly
Well-Known Member
No, you are both wrong. After they left Egypt, the Passover was celebrated on the 15th. That was their day of Salvation both from the Angel and when they quickly left the same day.
The 14th was always the day of preparation, because the Passover started at 6pm, that is when the firstborn started dying, where they had not prepared the Passover Lamb. The blood had to be placed by 6pm on the 14th, the day of preparation. The Lamb was not killed after the Angel passed over.
Wednesday was the day of the Cross, and Thursday was the Passover. The 14th and 15th of Nisan, every year is the day of preparation and then the Passover.
You claim the Passover was on the day of Preparation, and the Lamb (Jesus) was slain after the Angel had already come and gone.
Jesus actually had them prepare for the day of preparation on Tuesday, and then went out to the Garden all of the evening He was to be crucified. He was arrested around 3am, and buried within 18 hours. That was Wednesday before the Sabbath Passover on Thursday. So Jesus was in the tomb all Thursday, Friday, and Saturday. He more than likely left at 6pm. But the angel did not roll the stone away until 6am, when the sunrise happened.
In 30AD the Passover was on Thursday. In 33AD the Passover was on Saturday. Now one can argue that Calendars can be manipulated. Except that we see in 33AD the Passover was on Saturday which was both a high Sabbath and Sabbath on the same day. So the Calendar cannot be manipulated from 30 to 33AD. If 33AD was not the Passover, then Jesus was not on the Cross and thus no one has a symbolic point. The Lamb was still prepared (sacrificed) on the day of preparation.
The only point of contention between 30 and 33 is tradition since the 4th century. Someone decided "Good Friday" was a Catholic holy day. But then that makes Jesus a liar and He was not in the tomb 3 days and 3 nights all 72 hours. Not 2 evenings and a day as some argue, "36 hours because parts of days count so we can keep our good friday". Claiming it was on a Friday in 26AD would make more sense, but no one argues for 26AD, but 33AD. The only reason that makes sense is because some think Jesus was born at 0 and was 33 in 33AD. Since the one who decided to redo the Calendar for the day of the Lord and "before Christ" got the birth wrong, then we have good friday even more "set in the wrong stone".
timtofly
Well-Known Member
The Passover itself is the Sabbath Passover. It does not matter what day of the week that date falls on. It is always a Sabbath day. It is the Passover Feast Sabbath a high Sabbath. Sabbath does not mean 7. Sabbath means rest. The day of rest just happens to be the 7th day. A high day called a feast day is also a day of rest.
timtofly
Well-Known Member
The 15th of Nisan is always the high Sabbath. It is the day of rest for that feast for a particular reason. It was the day they were spared from the death Angel, and left Egypt.
"Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats: And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening. And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it. And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it. Eat not of it raw, nor sodden at all with water, but roast with fire; his head with his legs, and with the purtenance thereof. And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning; and that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire. And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it is the Lord's passover. For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the Lord. And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt. And this day (the 15th) shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the Lord throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever."
Exodus 12:5-14 It states it right there it will always be the 14th and 15th of Nisan, the first month of the year they left Egypt. They would leave that same day.
You may be trying to put the whole celebration together from the first day until the last day, but I have no argument with that. I have an argument with the year you have chosen to place the cornerstone of your argument, even if you say the year does not matter.
And a Calendar is not a doctrine. A Calendar just keeps account of every day on earth.
Even if like, current Judaism who do not trust the Calendar either, you cannot argue the point God set it up as the 14th and 15th for all time until heaven and earth pass away. Do you think it is just a coincidence that 33AD happens to have the 14th on a Friday? So every year is the Passover Sabbath on the 15th because of Exodus 12. It is a feast Sabbath and that is why it is a high Sabbath.
John said they rested on that day, Thursday, because it was a high Sabbath. The reason why it was 30AD, is because Jesus was in the tomb 72 hours, not 36 hours as you claim.
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Why would God rest from his labor on any day except the day he appointed as the day of rest? That day is the seventh day of of a week of seven days? He said he has finished his work when he dismissed his soul from his body and his body was laid to rest at the very end of day six and it rested in the tomb until the break of day on the eighth day. This is reported to us by all four gospel writers. There is no typology in previous world history for any other day. The prophesy is fulfilled with amazing precision just as it is given in the scriptures and in nature.
Psalms 19:1-6
1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.
3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.
4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,
5 Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.
6 His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.
Psalms 19:1-6
1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.
3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.
4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,
5 Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.
6 His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.
37818
Well-Known Member
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
These folks using The Companion Bible seem to nail everything down pretty good. Of course, I'm riding in a car to church.
Great job.
The Chronology of Christ's Crucifixion and Resurrection
"This great sabbath, High Day, having been mistaken from the earliest times for the weekly sabbath, has led to all the confusion."
timtofly
Well-Known Member
Do Calendars lie?
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37818
Well-Known Member
Exodus 12:6-18.
37818
Well-Known Member
The seventh day weekly Sabbath is the high Sabbath of the Passover week. No place in Scripture are either holy convocations called the Sabbath. Exodus 12:16.
timtofly
Well-Known Member
Deuteronomy 16:1-8
"Observe the month of Abib, and keep the passover unto the Lord thy God: for in the month of Abib the Lord thy God brought thee forth out of Egypt by night. Thou shalt therefore sacrifice the passover unto the Lord thy God, of the flock and the herd, in the place which the Lord shall choose to place his name there. Thou shalt eat no leavened bread with it; seven days shalt thou eat unleavened bread therewith, even the bread of affliction; for thou camest forth out of the land of Egypt in haste: that thou mayest remember the day when thou camest forth out of the land of Egypt all the days of thy life. And there shall be no leavened bread seen with thee in all thy coast seven days; neither shall there any thing of the flesh, which thou sacrificedst the first day at even, remain all night until the morning.
Thou mayest not sacrifice the passover within any of thy gates, which the Lord thy God giveth thee: But at the place which the Lord thy God shall choose to place his name in, there thou shalt sacrifice the passover at even, at the going down of the sun, at the season that thou camest forth out of Egypt. And thou shalt roast and eat it in the place which the Lord thy God shall choose: and thou shalt turn in the morning, and go unto thy tents. Six days thou shalt eat unleavened bread: and on the seventh day shall be a solemn assembly to the Lord thy God: thou shalt do no work therein."
The name used here is Abib, the name today is Nisan. This month is not the first month of the current Hebrew Calendar. The month of the day of Atonement, the third yearly feast is the first month of the Hebrew year.
Nisan was the first month they left Egypt.
The 6 days of the unleavened bread did not start on the 14th. The 7th day of this feast is the Passover. You argue it was from the 14 until the 21st. That would make Wednesday the 21st of 30AD a Sabbath day, still seperate from the Sabbath day on the 17th.
Look at Exodus 12 again:
"This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you. Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house:"
They no longer use this month as the first month of the year. The preparation starts on the 10th day, not the 14th. So not sure where you get the 14th to the 21st. Even in Leviticus 23:4-8 God says both the first and seventh days are Sabbath days.
"These are the feasts of the Lord, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons. In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord's passover. And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread. In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein. But ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord seven days: in the seventh day is an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein."
So if the 15th is the first day or the last day of this feast, the 15th is always the feast day, and a Sabbath day. The 14th was always the day of preparation for the 15th. Jesus was crucified on the day of preparation, the Wednesday, not on the Sabbath, Thursday.
Need I remind people? Sabbath means rest, not seven. No servile work defines the Sabbath whether the first day or the last day of this feast. That this feast started, where they ate unleavened bread for 6 days on the 9th would make more sense than the 15th being the first day and the 21st being the final day. But there is no reference to dates other than the 10th, the 14th, and the 15th in these Scriptures. But still the 15th is a Sabbath whether the 1st day or the 7th day of this feast. And you have not proven that the 15th of Nisan in 30AD was on a Wednesday. Wednesday was the day of preparation, always meaning work done the day before a Sabbath.
The online Calendar I use, timeanddate, shows the 15th on a Thursday in 30AD and on a Saturday in 33AD. That Calendar calls the month Nisan, and that is the month Passover is celebrated in all years. The sight has this disclaimer:
"For some early years, holidays are not shown
Local holidays are not listed, holidays on past calendars might not be correct."
My argument is: is the 15th wrong or do people just not agree on how the computer generated the Calendar?
If the computer is wrong, then the 14th on Friday in 33AD would also be suspect. So not sure how you think the 15th should be on a Wednesday?
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. John 19:31.
High Sabbaths, in most Christian and Messianic Jewish usage, are seven annual biblical festivals and rest days, recorded in the books of Leviticus and Deuteronomy.[1][2][3] This is an extension of the term "high day" found in the King James Version at John 19:31.
Where in the Bible is holy convocation?
23. [1] And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, [2] Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.
High Sabbaths - Wikipedia
"The seven festivals do not necessarily occur on weekly Shabbat (seventh-day Sabbath) and are called by the name miqra ("called assembly") in Hebrew (Lev. 23). They are observed by Jews and a minority of Christians. Two of the shabbath (holy assemblies) occur in spring on the first and last day of the Feast of unleavened bread (Matzot). One occurs in the summer, this is the Feast of Weeks (Shavuot). And four occur in the fall in the seventh month. Feast of Trumpets (Yom Teru'ah) on the first day of the seventh month; the second is the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur); and two during the Feast of Tabernacles (Sukkot) on the first and last day. Sometimes the word shabbaton is extended to mean all seven festivals.[4]
"The Gospel of John says of the day (Thursday) beginning the night following Christ's death,(Wednesday) "that sabbath day was a high day" (Thursday)(19:31–42).
"That night was Nisan 15 (Thursday), just after the first day of Passover week (Unleavened Bread)(Wednesday) and an annual miqra and rest day,(Thursday) in most chronologies."
I added those days of the week. I think they are right on.
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37818
Well-Known Member
Mark 14:12-16 wqs the 14th.
Mark 14:17 was the beginning of the 15th.
Mark 15:42 was the beginning of the 16th and was our Thursday evening.
Luke 24:21 was our Sunday.
The day before was the 7th day Sabbath.
The day before that was our Friday..
The day before Friday is Thursday.
Not rocket science.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
So, I'm going to call it a Non-peripheral intellectual discipline in religious historical methodology.
That is what I had previously called, "taking the wrong turn at the wrong Sabbath".
I put the info regarding the Annual High Day Sabbath that I am saying fell on Thursday in larger type, just because I could, not to be aggressive, etc.
The following quotes have meant nothing to you, for some reason, however;
I added the "(Thurday)" as being the 15th, an Annual Sabbath High Day.
Agreed.
12 And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?
13 And he sendeth forth two of his disciples, and saith unto them, Go ye into the city, and there shall meet you a man bearing a pitcher of water: follow him.
14 And wheresoever he shall go in, say ye to the goodman of the house, The Master saith, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?
15 And he will shew you a large upper room furnished and prepared: there make ready for us.
16 And his disciples went forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.
Agreed. "17 And in the evening he cometh with the twelve."
42 And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath,
I AM SEEING THIS as "the beginning of the 15th", as above, in Mark 14:17, which was our Tuesday evening; their beginning of their Wednesday.
21 "But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done."
I see this as Sunday, with "these things" including the burial along with the crucifixion, where they are saying that the totality of "these things" happened, counting back, Saturday, Friday, and Thursday (three days since the burial late late Wednesday, going into Thursday before sunset, etc.)
No. Heavens no. The seventh day Sabbath is not a part of the calculations; the Annual High Day Sabbath is (Thursday, 15th).
No. Heavens no. Wrong turn at the wrong Sabbath. If this is the Annual High Day Saaboth, it makes it Wednesday.
Then, the day before Thursday would be Wednesday.
It all hinges on Thursday being an Annual High Dat Sabbath.