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Featured Penal Substitution Gospel

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by 37818, Jul 22, 2023.

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  1. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    This a quote from Penal Substitution in the Early Church

    "The crown jewel of penal substitution in the early church is found in the Epistle to Diognetus."

    He Himself took on Him the burden of our iniquities, He gave His own Son as a ransom for us, the holy One for transgressors, the blameless One for the wicked, the righteous One for the unrighteous, the incorruptible One for the corruptible, the immortal One for them that are mortal. For what other thing was capable of covering our sins than His righteousness? By what other one was it possible that we, the wicked and ungodly, could be justified, than by the only Son of God? O sweet exchange! O unsearchable operation! O benefits surpassing all expectation! that the wickedness of many should be hid in a single righteous One, and that the righteousness of One should justify many transgressors! (Epistle to Diognetus, 9.2–5).

    I read through this quote a few times and I do not see PSA in these words.
     
    #41 Silverhair, Jul 23, 2023
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  2. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I agree. Penal Substitution is not in those words at all.

    What is in those words is the Christian view that Christ ransomed us. It is representative of traditional Christian belief - Christ, the Sinless One, died to redeem the wicked from the bondage of sin and death


    If you read penal substitution theorists looking back to claim history you will find that there is no substance to their arguments. This is sad because antiquity does not mean correct, yet it is enough for otherwise good men to forfeit their integrity. I believe it is impossible for this to be accidental.
     
    #42 JonC, Jul 23, 2023
  3. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    What you are not hearing.
     
    #43 37818, Jul 23, 2023
  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I am not hearing how it is penal substitution.
     
    #44 JonC, Jul 23, 2023
  5. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    The wage of sin is death, death of the soul of the sinner.

    Jesus gave His soul in death of His soul on the cross before His physical death.
    That is the whole of His penal substitution.

    What did not die, and does not die, is called their worm.
     
    #45 37818, Jul 23, 2023
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2023
  6. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    It was explicitly referenced..
     
    #46 37818, Jul 23, 2023
  7. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    That is when Jesus' soul was dead on the cross.
    What is not dead when the soul is dead.
     
    #47 37818, Jul 23, 2023
  8. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I understand, and agree that the wages of sin is death (don't know about dinner...I had a big lunch ;)).

    What you hold is not penal substitution. You call it that, but the name has already been taken - hence the confusion here.
     
    #48 JonC, Jul 23, 2023
  9. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I am not disallowing the term.

    I am saying that you are using the term (which already has a meaning) to mean something else.

    I could call my view "penal substitution". Then we'd have three different "penal substitutions" on this thread. But that would be confusing to everybody.
     
    #49 JonC, Jul 23, 2023
  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Do you have a verse stating that Jesus' soul was dead on the cross?
     
    #50 JonC, Jul 23, 2023
  11. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Typo. The d is next to the s.
     
    #51 37818, Jul 23, 2023
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  12. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Yep. I know typos very well. (I stopped using my computer and just use a phone).
     
    #52 JonC, Jul 23, 2023
  13. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Isaiah 53:10, ". . . thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, . . ."
    Now in John 19:28, it is past having been done, ". . . Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, . . ." When? ". . . about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? . . . ."

    It cannot be understood in unbelief.
     
    #53 37818, Jul 23, 2023
  14. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    I really do believe you when you say that. But you have to be deliberately ignoring what is there.
    Penal Substitution Theory: The belief that in his death Christ suffered the penalty for our breaking of the law and died as a substitute in our place (penal, involving penalty or legal punishment, from the Lat, poena, punishment, penalty, compensation).
    That's from "The Atonement, The Person and Work of Christ". by T.F. Torrance

    I could draw it out but I urge anyone to look above and jot down the phrases that match the definitions on a piece of paper and you will see for yourself the parallels. This is especially amazing in that the Diognetus citation was in no way trying to meet any definition because it had not been introduced yet as "penal substitution".

    And, don't let those on here who deliberately try to confuse you whenever the term "ransom" is used to make it seem like this is opposed to penal substitution. The ransom is a payment and when it is a payment to God, as Owen puts it in his larger catechism, it falls under penal substitution. Owen says what was paid was His blood and it was to God, not to Satan.
    You can disregard that if you also want to take the position that Owen was against penal substitution.

    The simple fact is, any time you have the concept of Christ dying for our sins, or shedding his blood for our sins, you have met the definitional requirement for "substitution". If you have this occurring to meet some idea of what God requires for the concept of justice as a result of us sinning or as specifically breaking the law and thus incurring a penalty you have "penal". That is why you have so many claims that this is in the writings of the early church fathers, the Bible, and of course Reformed theologians, Calvinist and Arminian.
     
    #54 DaveXR650, Jul 23, 2023
  15. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I agree. But those individual verses also cannot be understood out of context of the Scriptures in which they exist.

    This is a downside of verses. Verses were added late in history and are a great tool as an index. But too often it has led people to do as you did above.
     
    #55 JonC, Jul 23, 2023
  16. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    #56 37818, Jul 23, 2023
  17. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Their chronological order of their events. All those events are not repeated in all 4 accounts.
     
    #57 37818, Jul 23, 2023
  18. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Yes, we know that Jesus finished His earthly ministry and died on the cross (gave up the ghost). We also know that Jesus proclaimed that He had accomplished His ministry (His obedience even to the death on a cross) prior to actually dying on the cross (He didn't die, come back to life to announce His obedience was fulfilled).
     
    #57 JonC, Jul 23, 2023
  19. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    No. His penal substitution was completed before He physically died for His resurrection.
     
    #58 37818, Jul 23, 2023
  20. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Each gospel account did have a different focus (and not even the same immediate audience).

    One misconception we often have is that first century Judaism reported events in chronological order. That is often not the focus.

    But yes, Jesus was crucified, declared His obedience to God even to dying on the cross was finished, and then He died, was buried, and then resurrected.


    This does not explain the fact that your view, what you call "penal substitution", actually has nothing to do with penal substitution insofar as you have disclosed what you believe.
     
    #59 JonC, Jul 23, 2023
  21. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    The events are chronological when they occur. But all the teachings of the written word are written to be didactic. And events which happened at the same time may be reported in a swapped order in two parallel accounts. So chronological may not be there for didactic purposes.
     
    #60 37818, Jul 23, 2023
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