The Universal Invisible Church idea is a denial of "One Body", on which it is based.

[Alan Gross]

Before we look at Ephesians 4:4a;

Since there is something called 'One Body', as to number and that 'Universally' everyone who is saved is somehow apart of, or associated with, in some way, that we need to talk about, we may first want to ask a couple of scientific questions.

First, how does a new doctrine come about that isn't specifically taught and spelled out plainly in the rest of the teaching portions of the New Testament?

And second, and more importantly, how could this new doctrine be said to have a full and total meaning that is the exact opposite of the meaning of the words in the Bible that supposedly describe it?

I don't remember God operating like that before, with the meanings of His words. Do know of any other case in the Bible where a doctrine or teaching has come about, where the description of it is totally the opposite of the Bible words from which it presumably originated?

We're talking about the subject and world-wide prominent doctrine, believed by billions of professing Christians, as the Universal Invisible Church.

And now that we have named it, we might as well point out that a portion of it's name also has the perfectly exact opposite meaning, to what it purports to be.

The Universal Invisible Church is said to be derived from the Bible words in Ephesians 4:4a, "there is one body".

So, from what we have said about opposite meanings, we simply need to point out that the meaning of the words 'body' and 'church' are both diametrically opposite of the meaning of 'universal'.

'body' in Greek; 4983. sóma from sozo; the body (as a sound whole), used in a very wide application, literally or figuratively -- bodily, body, slave.

'church' in Greek; 1577. ekklésia assembly, church.
From a compound of ek and a derivative of kaleo; a calling out, i.e. (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue *) - assembly, church.

'universal' in Greek; 2889. kosmos Usage: the world, universe; worldly affairs; the inhabitants of the world; adornment.

The reader should be able to discern very quickly that a body (as a sound whole) and a church congregation or assembly have precious little, to nothing, in common with a universal entity involving world-wide affairs, in relationship and consideration of the inhabitants of the entire world.

So, how did a local body of an assembled congregation, which is the meaning of 'body', turn into a new doctrine with a meaning that includes 'universal' consideration of all of the inhabitants of the entire world?

Dunno.

But, that's what happened, when, "there is one body", in the Bible,
has supernaturally and miraculously transformed into the doctrine of the Universal Invisible Church.

Don't ask me how all that happened, but there is a whole world out there ready and willing to fight you over it.

I know it's advance in the minds and hearts of individuals seems to have also supernaturally come about, without trying to determine the good or evil behind it's seemingly supernatural world-wide popularity.

And then, with their usage of the word, "Invisible", included in their name, I'll let the reader decide what, if any, involvement they believe God had or has with the introduction of this new doctrine.

*I left out their modern definition that has come about in reverse and has been added from it's usage in the world regarding our subject, a 'Universal church', which began to be included in very recent editing and not which was it's meaning or usage in the Bible. May we view this as just another inconsequential distraction.


I ask those 'scientific' questions, above, to ask your permission to initially dismiss with the doctrine itself being any primary interpretation of the words in the Bible, from which it is based, and set the Universal Invisible Church doctrine aside, so we can look at those words in the Bible, again, for what they are.

We will be looking another reason that a 'Universal Invisible Church' concept or idea would also be a straightforward denial of Ephesians 4:4a; "There is one body".

It is mathematical.

Saying there is One Body of all believers, for example, which is essentially the same as the 'Universal Invisible Church' theory
will also be shown to be a denial of Ephesians 4:4a; "There is one body".

I don't know if you have ever tried to do the math on it, but the presence and existence of bodies of believers, throughout the New Testament and the world since that time, can't be denied for being the local assembling church bodies that they are.

If setting aside the theory of a 'Universal Invisible Church', as some automatic drop dead meaning of "one body" is permitted, we want to view the meaning of "one body" as being that of it's chapter, book, and New Testament context.

Word for word, I Corinthians 12:27 states a typical Bible definition of what God is expressing when using the word 'body' to refer to His churches like the one in Corinth, "Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular", meaning it's particular members would gather together in assemblies and that those congregations are called a, "body of Christ".

That's one definition of a body and one kind of a body.

A 'body' of believers that congregates together who are particular members of that assembly.

That's one kind of body, in our count.

Then, to say there is One Body of all saved people is one more definition and kind of body, like some people call the Universal Invisible 'church'.

So, that is another kind of body, called one body, too.

The local church body is one body, by definition and kind.

The One Body, as to number of all saved people, or the Universal Invisible 'church', is also another one body, by definition and kind.

So, one local body, by definition and kind, plus One Body, as to number of all saved people, by definition and kind, or the Universal Invisible 'church', makes two total bodies, by definition and kind.

The two bodies are different, by definition and kind.

If you do the math and add one, plus one, counting the two separate kinds of bodies, you arrive at two, for the number of bodies that there are, by their two different definitions.

But, there are not two kinds of bodies that God has revealed to us, Biblically speaking.

Therefore, the postulation presented that there is One Body, as to number of all saved people, by definition and kind, or the Universal Invisible 'church', is a straightforward denial of plain Bible teaching, in Ephesians 4:4a; "There is one body".

There can't be one kind of a local church body and also another kind of body that is somehow universal, as we see one body defined in the Bible.

Any suggestions or inventions by individuals claiming the reality of something they call, "One Body", as to number of all saved people, by definition and kind, or the Universal Invisible 'church', is simply a denial of Ephesians 4:4a; "There is one body", where it is supposed to have originated and from which it's entire Invisible 'existence', in the minds of people, is said to be based.

Every time.

The words 'Universal Church' is a denial of the kind of one body, a local assembly, which actually does have a very real existence in the realm of reality and the teachings of the Bible, from then until now.

That's all there is to it, really.

No sense trying to teach the Bible to those who don't hear it and don't want to hear it, or even assume for a split second they may be wrong about it.

Just do the math.

Within the restrictions of the Bible.

"There is one body".

The introduction of this vague additional kind of Universal Body or Church is in direct contradiction to the wording in the verse from which it developed and expanded into the imaginary "nothingness" and false Doctrinal teaching it is, today.

 

[37818]

The "Universal Invisible Church" is an extra Biblical argument.

 

[Salty]

Wow - a great subject - seems like we havent discussed this before.

 

[Alan Gross]

Wow - a great subject - seems like we havent discussed this before.

Nope. I told you I was sorry, but that I had one more I had to post.

I'll look over my notes and see if there's something else I can harp on, for a while.

There are other great subjects in the Bible, we know!!

 

[Salty]

Nope. I told you I was sorry, but that I had one more I had to post.
There are other great subjects in the Bible, we know!!

First, if you did not realize it, I was being a bit facetious!
Second, let me rephrase your question:
There are other great subjects on the Baptist Board
Would be interesting if you would get involved in non-Bible forums.

*I left out their modern definition that has come about.[/QUOTE]
That's right - over time definitions change. Thus a good reason for using other translations.

;
There can't be one kind of a local church body and also another kind of body that is somehow universal, as we see one body defined in the Bible.
.

Why NOT!!!

The Ford Motor Company is a world wide Company that makes many cars.They have built well over 300 million vehicles!

Now a company, HQ in Syracuse for a while - Zimmer has produced just a fraction of the cars that Ford has. --- One is local one is "universal" (except Antarctic!)

Just because there is a local church (actual multi thousands...) does not mean there cannot be a "universal" church - which is "invisible" because there is no central HQ!

So this Local vs U/I is much ado about nothing.
And I dont even see the need or reason to spend an excessive amount of time on that subject.

One other thing - most of your posts - I hardly read - because they are way too long.
(True - you are not breaking any BB rules)
But it could be just me - not wasting time on such long posts. (Hmm, I wonder how many others feel the same as I do about extra-long posts.

 

[tyndale1946]

First, if you did not realize it, I was being a bit facetious!
Second, let me rephrase your question:
There are other great subjects on the Baptist Board
Would be interesting if you would get involved in non-Bible forums.

*I left out their modern definition that has come about.

That's right - over time definitions change. Thus a good reason for using other translations.


Why NOT!!!

The Ford Motor Company is a world wide Company that makes many cars.They have built well over 300 million vehicles!

Now a company, HQ in Syracuse for a while - Zimmer has produced just a fraction of the cars that Ford has. --- One is local one is "universal" (except Antarctic!)

Just because there is a local church (actual multi thousands...) does not mean there cannot be a "universal" church - which is "invisible" because there is no central HQ!

So this Local vs U/I is much ado about nothing.
And I dont even see the need or reason to spend an excessive amount of time on that subject.

One other thing - most of your posts - I hardly read - because they are way too long.
(True - you are not breaking any BB rules)
But it could be just me - not wasting time on such long posts. (Hmm, I wonder how many others feel the same as I do about extra-long posts.[/QUOTE]

To springboard off of Salty... I'm really amazed at the knowledge of some of the brethren but if you go preaching a dissertation in church you will lose almost all the congregation and in the secular world there is an acronym... K.I.S.S... I think it applies in church too... Talk to me not above me... If you talk above me, you're talking to yourself... Just some words of wisdom to someone whose been in church over 55 years... Brother Glen

Btw Alan there should be a special form for you long winded brethren and for church you can replace the last S for servant

 

[Alan Gross]

*I left out their modern definition that has come about.

That's right - over time definitions change. Thus a good reason for using other translations.[/QUOTE]

I couldn't help wondering how those things make the devil feel. Happy? Sad?

Just because there is a local church (actual multi thousands...) does not mean there cannot be a "universal" church - which is "invisible" because there is no central HQ!

So this Local vs U/I is much ado about nothing.
And I dont even see the need or reason to spend an excessive amount of time on that subject.

Again, maybe it's something I ate, but I couldn't help wondering how those things make the devil feel. Happy? Sad?

One other thing - most of your posts - I hardly read - because they are way too long.

Right. Most God-Honoring things posted to the Internet in a year.

Look at them as vehicles to Worship God, as they were intended.

I am a Baptist Missionary to the Baptist Board Forum.

Scriptures are spelled out in purple and the essential content highlighted in blue or red. Skimming that stuff should be enough, if you know anything, otherwise I'm just placing the Eternal Word of God under the soul of viewers, in a way the zHoly Spirit may use it.

Btw, it's OK for you to post a scripture every once in a while, as far as I know.

I have another fix for the lengths and that is to reference further material on my blog if I will do it.

But it could be just me - not wasting time on such long posts. (Hmm, I wonder how many others feel the same as I do about extra-long posts.

The ignore button would be for anyone that doesn't like Baptist material, for sure.

 

[37818]

. . . - not wasting time on such long posts. (Hmm, I wonder how many others feel the same as I do about extra-long posts. . . .

Yeah. But occasionally one stumbles over some statement that simply cannot be true, and it can use a comment.

 

[Alan Gross]

Yeah. But occasionally one stumbles over some statement that simply cannot be true, and it can use a comment.

Don't tell me. And don't tell Salty.

Would a "statement that simply cannot be true", be like,
"one body", combined together as a mass of matter in bulk or core,
means one cosmic dispersal of an invisible and ubiquitous universal Psyche Consciousness?

That's not God-speak.

 

[37818]

"one body"

Is explicitly what God's word says, Ephesians 4:4, ". . . There is one body, . . ." And in Ephesians 2:21, ". . . In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: . . ."

 

[Salty]

Is explicitly what God's word says, Ephesians 4:4, ". . . There is one body, . . ." And in Ephesians 2:21, ". . . In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: . . ."

So 37 (can I call you 37?)
So with one body --
If in a town there are ten Bible believing churches
Do we have 10 bodies or one body.

 

[37818]

So 37 (can I call you 37?)

No problem.

So with one body --
If in a town there are ten Bible believing churches
Do we have 10 bodies or one body.

Romans 12:4-5, 1 Corinthians 10:17, 1 Corinthians 12:12-14, and Ephesians 4:4. ". . . one body . . . ."

 

[Alan Gross]

No problem.
Romans 12:4-5, 1 Corinthians 10:17, 1 Corinthians 12:12-14, and Ephesians 4:4. ". . . one body . . . ."

Just so I'll know for sure, have you ever read any of those verses you quoted, or the chapter they are in?

 

[37818]

Just so I'll know for sure, have you ever read any of those verses you quoted, or the chapter they are in?

Of course. From what I understand of your view, the texts at issue, we understand them differently. I believe @Salty understands your view. I am not sure how he understands those verses. But I suspect his view is similar to mine. But I trust he may make his view clear. We can discuss how we understand said verses.

 

[37818]

@Alan Gross,
A popular extreme example.
The interpretation every believer is.a temple of the Holy Spirit.

The 2011 NIV, 1 Corinthians 6:19, '. . . Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; . . .'

Versus, the KJV, ". . . What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? . . . ."

Believers collectively are the body of Christ, the temple of the Holy Spirit.

Ye, you and your are plural, not an individual.

 

[Alan Gross]

Romans 12:4-5; "4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:

5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

You mean this?

Romans 12:4-5; "4 For as globally dispersed and scattered we have many globally dispersed and scattered members in one globally dispersed and scattered body, if we define 'body' using an anonym of the word 'body' and all globally dispersed and scattered members have not the same office, that are globally dispersed and scattered.

5 So we being globally dispersed and scattered, being many, are one globally dispersed and scattered body, if we define 'body' using an anonym of the word 'body' in Christ, and every globally dispersed and scattered one(?) members one globally dispersed and scattered of(?, meaning 'belonging to'?) another that is also globally dispersed.

Or;

Romans 12:4-5; "4 For as we as an organization have many individual members in one congregating body, defined by the word 'body', and all individual members have not the same specific office they are called and added by the Holy Spirit to perform.

5 So we as an organization, being many individuals, are one congregating body defined by the definition of the word 'body' in the Name of Christ, and every one members as individuals belong together, one individual member in agreement covenanted together and each having mutual interest and concern of another individual member.

 

[Alan Gross]

Of course. From what I understand of your view, the texts at issue, we understand them differently.

The interpretation every believer is.a temple of the Holy Spirit.

This is the Bible teaching that each individual believer is called 'the Temple of God.

The 2011 NIV, 1 Corinthians 6:19, '. . . Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; . .

Same here, as believers who are indwelt with the Divine Nature and are called, 'the Temple of the Holy Spirit".

Versus, the KJV, ". . . What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? . .

Believers collectively are the body of Christ, the temple of the Holy Spirit.

This would be a separate teaching where a local collection of believers covenanted as an assembling organization also has their uniting unit called "an Holy Temple in the Lord".

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

 

[37818]

Same here, as believers who are indwelt with the Divine Nature and are called, 'the Temple of the Holy Spirit".






This would be a separate teaching where a local collection of believers covenanted as an assembling organization also has their uniting unit called "an Holy Temple in the Lord".

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Well I guess we are done.
It would seem we do not agree.

Ephesians 4:4-6, "There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."

There is in heaven and earth only the one of each of these here.

 

[Alan Gross]

Well I guess we are done.
It would seem we do not agree.

Ephesians 4:4-6, "There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."

There is in heaven and earth only the one of each of these here.

One baptism?

There is one water baptism that has taken place?

One faith?

If we start with saying each saved individual has been given faith, then it must be saying that there is one kind of faith..

Then, one baptism can be 'one kind of faith", namely 'the 'faith' once delivered to the saints and also that there can be 'one kind of' baptism, which would be "water baptism" that is administered over and over, and 'one kind of,' body, which would be what the Bible and the dictionary define as the meaning of a 'body', with regard to religious things, which is "Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular", in I Corinthians 12:27 and everywhere else.

With that 'body' of Christ's having particular members means that the particular members are what forms and defines what the 'body' is meant to express.

Without going into where one 'faith' may be found, as compared to the thousands of other 'faiths' that may be observed, I preached yesterday about the Holy Spirit being the Godhead's Executive Administrator of the kind of churches He Originated, since He was sent to dwell in them, as His Habitations through the Spirit, on the Day of Pentecost, when Jesus sent His disciples who were organized in corporate capacity Another Comforter, He had promised to send them.

Jesus baptized or submersed His church organization, making her to be of Divine Origin, and He Anointed the Most Holy (Daniel 9:24g) once and for all, to dwell in her, until He comes again.

That is the Shekinah Glory spoken of as Indwelling the Tabernacle and Temple, in the Old Testament, where God instructed His people to assemble, how to Worship Him, and bring Him Glory through the Presence of the Shekinah Glory, just as He promised to do in His kind of organized church assemblies that would bring Him "unto God be GLORY in His churches throughout all ages, world without end" (Ephesians 2:21).

Although there is no historically documented chain-link Pedigree, to prove an unbroken succession of the one kind of local church 'body', doesn't change me from believing the Bible as a statement of Historical Facts and in believing that the Omnipotent Holy Spirit is capable of accomplishing what He was Sent by the Godhead to Perform, and that is to maintain God's Witness in the New Testament Era of His Churches, indwelling and through Jesus' kind of churches He built, edified, and continues to build, and edify, to carry out God's Business of the Great Commission.

Those are in a realm of reality that is above the reality we can touch and feel and are known to us, as 'facts'. The Spirit Realm is a Higher Reality than the 'facts' that we can touch and feel.

That Spirit Realm is where all of the Spiritual Realities and Miraculous events in the Bible take place.

The churches Jesus built are simply one more Miraculous Supernatural Reality that some of God's saints are Led by the Holy Spirit to believe from His Word and some are not, even to the extent of them defining a word in the Bible with a misunderstanding meaning that is the exact opposite of what God intended it to express.

The one kind of faith once delivered to the saints that has the Authority of God, and the one kind of water baptism that has the Authority of God are both Supernaturally perpetuated in their continued existence until this day, through the one kind of local church body that has the Authority of God to be His witness on Earth and to conduct God's Business on Earth, throughout the entire New Testament Era.

God commands His children to be baptized and to not forsake the assembling of themselves together in the Presence of the drawing, leading, teaching, protecting, and sustaining Shekinah Glory in the New Testament the same as His children were Commanded to assemble and Worship in and by very detailed and exacting instructions, for the Tabernacle and Temple, in the Old Testament.

God has not called you to Spiritually discern this Spiritual Reality in that way, 37, but you have always been open and cordial, Spiritually, in hashing in and around about it.

Thank you.

I can't tell you what to believe, or not to believe, whether it is real or entirely imagined.