Seeking God?

[Silverhair]

The OP is about Romans 3:11. Please do not derail this thread. Start another if you want to discuss Psalm 14.

peace to you

Not seeking after God is an act of the will. Man will not seek after God. It does not say that man can not seek after God! Can you prove (sola scriptura) that Romans 3:11 can not mean “will not”? If you can’t, then you cannot disprove the free will of man!

And how do you make this agree with Jeremiah 29:13? Why would God say: "You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart." if He knew they couldn’t do so? Or with Proverbs 8:17 "I love those who love me; And those who diligently seek me will find me."

 

[canadyjd]

@canadyjd you are making the assumption that the calvinist view is the correct understanding of the text. That is your bias.

@Silverhair you are in error because you do not know me. I came to my understanding of Romans 3:11 long before I ever heard the term “Calvinist”. I didn’t bring bias to the text then and I don’t now.

Quite frankly, the passage is very easy to understand. Just believe what it says.

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

Not seeking after God is an act of the will. Man will not seek after God. It does not say that man can not seek after God! Can you prove (sola scriptura) that Romans 3:11 can not mean “will not”? If you can’t, then you cannot disprove the free will of man!

And how do you make this agree with Jeremiah 29:13? Why would God say: "You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart." if He knew they couldn’t do so? Or with Proverbs 8:17 "I love those who love me; And those who diligently seek me will find me."

Semantics, imo. To say every person on the planet “will not seek God” does not mean they “can not seek God” is a distinction without a difference.

God said those things in the OT because they are true. If someone sought God with all his heart, he would find Him. But…. No one does..per Romans 3:11.

Thus…. The need for a Savior, our Lord Jesus.

peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

Semantics, imo. To say every person on the planet “will not seek God” does not mean they “can not seek God” is a distinction without a difference.

God said those things in the OT because they are true. If someone sought God with all his heart, he would find Him. But…. No one does..per Romans 3:11.

Thus…. The need for a Savior, our Lord Jesus.

peace to you

Do you not know the difference between "can not seek God " and "will not seek God" One indicates choice. So if they have the choice not to seek then they have the choice to seek God.

You do understand hyperbole I hope or do you think "THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN TOMB; WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY HAVE PRACTICED DECEIT"; "THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS" should be read as it is written?

 

[Brightfame52]

We may seek after a "God" of our own making, but the God as revealed in the Scriptures?
Not according to His word we do not.

We really are that bad, as a race.

I meant to say the True God, no man by nature will ever seek after the True God! I see we agree !

 

[Brightfame52]

I have made the case, nothing more needs said.

You deceived friend, no man naturally seeks after the True God, nor understands Him, because he is dead in and under sin Rom 3:9-11

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

 

[Brightfame52]

silverhair

Do you not know the difference between "can not seek God " and "will not seek God"

There is no difference, they compliment one another, man cannot seek after God because he will not, and he will not because he cannot, he is dead to God by nature, the True God that is

 

[Van]

Here again is what was actually said…..

Some do not understand the difference between asking questions and “presenting truth” or saying “maybe” translated such and such is presenting truth, or saying “options three” is somehow presenting truth.

The case has not been made. There is nothing to “lock”. Truth has not been presented. Only non biblical speculation has been presented, as usual.

Bottom line… the OP is yet another attempt to present alternative understandings of long accepted Christian doctrine to support pre-conceived bias toward God’s Word.

Taint so!! Full Stop!!

peace to you

Folks, the questions were once again not addressed, but "against the person" fallicious argumentation is in full view.

Here again is the truth, some of the lost do seek the God of the Bible according to scripture. Many were seeking the narrow way that leads to life. Or what do I need to do to obtain eternal life. And so on and so forth.

 

[Van]

You deceived friend, no man naturally seeks after the True God, nor understands Him, because he is dead in and under sin Rom 3:9-11

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

All true, but note not one of the citations support no one ever seeks God. And in light of the many verses saying some of the lost do seek God some of the time, the claim is nonsense. Did anyone say, without divine revelation, people naturally seek God? Nope, so not the effort to alter the point of dispute. However, give God's revelation, both general and special, some of the lost respond and seek God.

 

[canadyjd]

Do you not know the difference between "can not seek God " and "will not seek God" One indicates choice. So if they have the choice not to seek then they have the choice to seek God.

You do understand hyperbole I hope or do you think "THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN TOMB; WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY HAVE PRACTICED DECEIT"; "THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS" should be read as it is written?

God knows not one single person on the planet will seek him unless He intervenes in their lives.

Sone say they could if they wanted to, its matter of freewill. They just don’t want to.

So…. Let’s review the different perspectives..

1. Those that are able to come to God by exercising freewill, and don’t, equals 100% of all people.

2. Those that are unable to come to God because their human will is enslaved to sin, therefore not free, and don’t, equals 100% of the people.

That is a distinction without a difference.

Peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

Folks, the questions were once again not addressed, but "against the person" fallicious argumentation is in full view.

Here again is the truth, some of the lost do seek the God of the Bible according to scripture. Many were seeking the narrow way that leads to life. Or what do I need to do to obtain eternal life. And so on and so forth.

Folks, once again, the OP claimed to present truth (not ask questions) that were a “lock”.

When demonstrated with their own words what they had presented was speculation. “Maybe translated such and such… option three” the OP, once again, claims victimhood.

Another waste of cyber space.

I bow our. Please continue your crusade to finally be the person that disproves the doctrines of grace.

peace to you

 

[Van]

Folks, once again, the OP claimed to present truth (not ask questions) that were a “lock”.
When demonstrated with their own words what they had presented was speculation. “Maybe translated such and such… option three” the OP, once again, claims victimhood.
Another waste of cyber space.
I bow our. Please continue your crusade to finally be the person that disproves the doctrines of grace.
peace to you

I am reminded of Bogart's line, first they knock my teeth out, then kick me for mumbling.

Here again is the truth, some of the lost do seek the God of the Bible according to scripture. Many were seeking the narrow way that leads to life. Or what do I need to do to obtain eternal life. And so on and so forth.

Verses that teach that some of the lost some of the time seek the God of the Bible:
Exodus 33:7
Matthew 13:18:23
Luke 13:24
Matthew 19:16-22
Matthew 23:13

 

[Mikoo]

I have made the case, nothing more needs said.

You sir seem to have all the RIGHT answers. I must repeat: (And please include you never wrong notes on God's Word)

You You have already discerned 'poor or corrupt translation choices' by your own diligent bible study. Now we can add your ability to recognize 'outdated mistranslation(s)'.

Still waiting for that commitment where you can share that knowledge by fixing all those 'poor and corrupt translation choices' and now 'outdated mistranslation(s)' by others and publish your own bible (The Van Bible?) version where you correct these incapable scholars from their 'poor and corrupt translation choices' and 'outdated mistranslation(s)' which would be a huge benefit to all of us.

Snarky commented deleted by moderator

 

[canadyjd]

I am reminded of Bogart's line, first they knock my teeth out, then kick me for mumbling….

I’m reminded of the Liam Neesin line… the ability to speak does not prove intelligence…



Peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

God knows not one single person on the planet will seek him unless He intervenes in their lives.

Sone say they could if they wanted to, its matter of freewill. They just don’t want to.

So…. Let’s review the different perspectives..

1. Those that are able to come to God by exercising freewill, and don’t, equals 100% of all people.

2. Those that are unable to come to God because their human will is enslaved to sin, therefore not free, and don’t, equals 100% of the people.

That is a distinction without a difference.

Peace to you

You seem to have a very low opinion of God 's creation. Good thing God does not hold to your view.

Your deterministic view makes a sham of scripture and destroys the character of God.

Since man by your own words has zero free will then what? God then becomes the only one that is free. So all that happens here, all the good and all the bad is directly His responsibility. All those saved and all those damned are His responsibility. You can not pass any of this off on man as they have no free will remember.

By your logic we might as well throw out all the bibles and stop preaching the gospel message as it has no effect anyway, remember man has no free will so that he could chose to trust in Christ. You just have to hope you won the lottery and got picked to be saved, I mean eternity is a long long time to be in hell for something you had no choice about.

But then again since the picture that your calvinist determinism paints of God is not what we see of God in the bible then we should conclude that your calvinism is wrong.

The bible tells us God is love and He desires all to repent and be saved and He even provided the means through His son. That is why God reaches out to us through creation, the gospel message and the conviction of the Holy Spirit so the man can know Him. That is why God has given us a free will so that we are without excuse. Man can either trust in or reject God and will be judged based on that free will choice.

 

[Silverhair]

@Silverhair you are in error because you do not know me. I came to my understanding of Romans 3:11 long before I ever heard the term “Calvinist”. I didn’t bring bias to the text then and I don’t now.

Quite frankly, the passage is very easy to understand. Just believe what it says.

peace to you

Well I would have surmise that you did not understand exaggeration/hyperbole as the context clearly shows that it is not to be taken as literal fact. Paul was making a point to the Jews he was speaking to, being Jews would not save them.

FYI I understood that it was hyperbole when I was just a young teen. I am surprised you did not understand that.

 

[canadyjd]

Well I would have surmise that you did not understand exaggeration/hyperbole as the context clearly shows that it is not to be taken as literal fact. Paul was making a point to the Jews he was speaking to, being Jews would not save them.

FYI I understood that it was hyperbole when I was just a young teen. I am surprised you did not understand that.

Romans 3:11 is not hyperbole. Paul uses several chapters in Romans to establish the fact all of mankind is enslaved to sin and unable to come to God without God’s intervention.

I am not surprised that you do not understand that.

I now remember why I decided I wouldn’t respond to your posts.

Thanks for the conversation.

peace to you

 

[Van]

I’m reminded of the Liam Neesin line… the ability to speak does not prove intelligence…

Peace to you

Here again is the truth, some of the lost do seek the God of the Bible according to scripture. Many were seeking the narrow way that leads to life. (Luke 13:24) Or what do I need to do to obtain eternal life. And so on and so forth.

 

[Van]

Verses that teach that some of the lost some of the time seek the God of the Bible:
Exodus 33:7
Matthew 13:18-23
Luke 13:24
Matthew 19:16-22
Matthew 23:13

 

[Silverhair]

Romans 3:11 is not hyperbole. Paul uses several chapters in Romans to establish the fact all of mankind is enslaved to sin and unable to come to God without God’s intervention.

I am not surprised that you do not understand that.

I now remember why I decided I wouldn’t respond to your posts.

Thanks for the conversation.

peace to you

So you do not consider this as hyperbole.
Rom 3:10 As it is written: "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NO, NOT ONE;
Rom 3:11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS; THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS AFTER GOD.
Rom 3:12 THEY HAVE ALL TURNED ASIDE; THEY HAVE TOGETHER BECOME UNPROFITABLE; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, NO, NOT ONE."
Rom 3:13 "THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN TOMB; WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY HAVE PRACTICED DECEIT"; "THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS";
Rom 3:14 "WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS."
Rom 3:15 "THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD;
Rom 3:16 DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR WAYS;
Rom 3:17 AND THE WAY OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN."
Rom 3:18 "THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES."

I understand that as a calvinist you want to proof text in order to support your view but Paul did not write one liners. Context really helps you understand scripture.

I agree Paul did show that man on his own would not come to God. But it is a good thing that God did provide the necessary information for man so that he could make that free will choice to either trust in Christ or reject Him and be held responsible for that choice.