From a different thread Cathode had a comment and I responded. Here is the two statements. Who is the woman of Revelation 12:1-6? Cathode says it's Mary. I say it's the Israel of God, the Church. Perhaps both of us are wrong. Who is the woman?
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Revelation 12:1-6 - Who is the Woman?
- Thread starter taisto
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So we are one who rules the nations with rod of Iron ?
Evidence for the woman being the Covenant Israel of God, from the text:
Revelation 12:1-6
And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.
The sun is Abraham. The moon is Sarah. The woman is the Israel of God. The 12 stars are the fullness of Israel in the 12 Tribes.
She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pains and the agony of giving birth.
From Israel comes the Promised, Anointed, Messiah who is to Redeem His people. From Genesis 3 the promise of a Redeemer is shown and from that time the birth pangs began. Indeed, Adam and Eve thought that Cain was to be the Anointed one, but alas, no. The Old Testament tells us of the birth pangs until Yeshua, the Promised One is born in Bethlehem.
And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems. His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it.
The Dragon is Satan. At that time his throne was on the seven hills of Rome and the Ceasar's represent the seven crowns. Rome, under the rule of Satan, wiped out a third of the Israel of God in it's conquest of the world as Satan tried to destroy the line from which the Anointed One would be born.
She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days.
From the Israel of God came the Promised One, Yeshua. Satan tried to destroy Yeshua, but He conquered the grave and He then ascended to heaven as our High Priest. The Israel of God (the Church) then had to flee the attack by Jewish authorities and Rome as the government under Satan's rule tried to destroy the woman (Israel of God) who had brought forth the One who had defeated Satan at the Cross. But, God protected the Israel of God and would not let that small mustard seed die. A bent reed He would not break and a smoldering wick He would not allow to be put out. God has grown the Israel of God, the Church, from something small to a plant that even supports the birds that are not a part of itself.
We can go on in Revelation 12:13-17 and see that the woman is the Church and not Mary.
And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child.
Satan didn't pursue Mary. He pursued the Israel of God, the Church.
But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time.
Mary was not sent into the wilderness. This is the Church, the Israel of God, which found nourishment in hiding from the wicked Roman Empire who acts as Satan's minion.
The serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, to sweep her away with a flood. But the earth came to the help of the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed the river that the dragon had poured from his mouth.
Satan tried to destroy consume the Israel of God, but God protected the church, hiding them in catacombs and caves.
Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.
Even today, Satan is making war against the Church and the many denominations in the Church who profess Christ as their Lord. Satan has, at this time been bound from attacking the Church, but one day soon he will be released to attack with full force one more time.
Revelation 12:1-6
And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.
The sun is Abraham. The moon is Sarah. The woman is the Israel of God. The 12 stars are the fullness of Israel in the 12 Tribes.
She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pains and the agony of giving birth.
From Israel comes the Promised, Anointed, Messiah who is to Redeem His people. From Genesis 3 the promise of a Redeemer is shown and from that time the birth pangs began. Indeed, Adam and Eve thought that Cain was to be the Anointed one, but alas, no. The Old Testament tells us of the birth pangs until Yeshua, the Promised One is born in Bethlehem.
And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems. His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it.
The Dragon is Satan. At that time his throne was on the seven hills of Rome and the Ceasar's represent the seven crowns. Rome, under the rule of Satan, wiped out a third of the Israel of God in it's conquest of the world as Satan tried to destroy the line from which the Anointed One would be born.
She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days.
From the Israel of God came the Promised One, Yeshua. Satan tried to destroy Yeshua, but He conquered the grave and He then ascended to heaven as our High Priest. The Israel of God (the Church) then had to flee the attack by Jewish authorities and Rome as the government under Satan's rule tried to destroy the woman (Israel of God) who had brought forth the One who had defeated Satan at the Cross. But, God protected the Israel of God and would not let that small mustard seed die. A bent reed He would not break and a smoldering wick He would not allow to be put out. God has grown the Israel of God, the Church, from something small to a plant that even supports the birds that are not a part of itself.
We can go on in Revelation 12:13-17 and see that the woman is the Church and not Mary.
And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child.
Satan didn't pursue Mary. He pursued the Israel of God, the Church.
But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time.
Mary was not sent into the wilderness. This is the Church, the Israel of God, which found nourishment in hiding from the wicked Roman Empire who acts as Satan's minion.
The serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, to sweep her away with a flood. But the earth came to the help of the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed the river that the dragon had poured from his mouth.
Satan tried to destroy consume the Israel of God, but God protected the church, hiding them in catacombs and caves.
Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.
Even today, Satan is making war against the Church and the many denominations in the Church who profess Christ as their Lord. Satan has, at this time been bound from attacking the Church, but one day soon he will be released to attack with full force one more time.
Christ Jesus, the Anointed One, is the one who rules with an iron scepter.
Psalm 2:1-12
Why do the nations rage and the peoples plot in vain? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord and against his Anointed, saying, “Let us burst their bonds apart and cast away their cords from us.” He who sits in the heavens laughs; the Lord holds them in derision. Then he will speak to them in his wrath, and terrify them in his fury, saying, “As for me, I have set my King on Zion, my holy hill.” I will tell of the decree: The Lord said to me, “You are my Son; today I have begotten you. Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage, and the ends of the earth your possession. You shall break them with a rod of iron and dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.” Now therefore, O kings, be wise; be warned, O rulers of the earth. Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and you perish in the way, for his wrath is quickly kindled. Blessed are all who take refuge in him.
Take note brother:
5 And she was delivered of a son, a man child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and unto his throne.
17 And the dragon waxed wroth with the woman, and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, that keep the commandments of God, and hold the testimony of Jesus: Rev 12
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. Gal 4
So if the one who Rules with an Iron Sceptre is Jesus, can’t His mother also be symbolic of Mary, being His actual mother?
Matthew 12: 47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
Brother Glen
So everyone except Mary is His mother?
I didn't say it scripture did!... I believe in scripture and the words of the Lord... Brother Glen
I didn't say it scripture did!... I believe in scripture and the words of the Lord... Brother Glen
So your official interpretation and conclusion from scripture is that Mary was not the mother of Jesus?
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Not covenantally in regard to the Promised One whom God covenanted to Adam and Eve and then kept that promise through generations of Satan attempting to break the line of that covenant. In the context of Revelation 12, the mother cannot be Mary. It simply doesn't fit with the language John uses.
Look at 2 John 1:1-3 and see that John is using the same language.
"The elder to the elect lady and her children, whom I love in truth, and not only I, but also all who know the truth, because of the truth that abides in us and will be with us forever: Grace, mercy, and peace will be with us, from God the Father and from Jesus Christ the Father’s Son, in truth and love."
The lady is the Church and the growth of the Church is her children.
This view has been taught from the very early church fathers. It surprises me that you don't know this.
I know that the woman can be seen as symbolic of the Church, but you are trying to make the case that the woman is exclusively the Church, and not also symbolic of Mary as well.
If you can identify the one symbolically ruling the nations with an Iron Sceptre as the person of Jesus, then by extension you can also identify the woman, his mother symbolically as Mary as well.
You cannot.
Where do you see Mary in Psalm 2?
Psalm 2 absolutely mentions Jesus as "The Anointed One."
John is pointing us directly at Psalm 2 when he writes down this vision in Revelation 12.
Psalm 2
Why do the nations rage and the peoples plot in vain? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord and against his Anointed, saying, “Let us burst their bonds apart and cast away their cords from us.” He who sits in the heavens laughs; the Lord holds them in derision. Then he will speak to them in his wrath, and terrify them in his fury, saying, “As for me, I have set my King on Zion, my holy hill.” I will tell of the decree: The Lord said to me, “You are my Son; today I have begotten you. Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage, and the ends of the earth your possession. You shall break them with a rod of iron and dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.” Now therefore, O kings, be wise; be warned, O rulers of the earth. Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and you perish in the way, for his wrath is quickly kindled. Blessed are all who take refuge in him.
Notice, no mention of kissing the "Mom." We see Jesus, the Anointed One, glorified and praised. Never his mom. She isn't even mentioned here.
Therefore, Revelation 12 cannot be referring to Mary, the earthly mother of Jesus.
Jesus had to glorify his mom, it’s a commandment, and Jesus could never break any of The Commandments. Not one.
To honour your Father and your Mother, means to “Glorify” them in Hebrew.
Read Mary’s inspired words in Scripture and understand, God raises the lowly.
Protestants and Baptist’s seem to loathe any elevation of Mary, they seem to find any chance to lower Her.
To be honest with you, I see the Lord’s mom as my mom, since my life is now only discipleship and imitation of The Lord. And if any detract from Her, they detract from my Lord and King. It’s only because Jesus is The King of kings, that Mary is my Queen of queens.
For Catholics Mary is the most blessed and holy of all women, not even Eve conceived and carried The Living Eternal Word and birthed, nurtured and raised Him. If any creature intimately truly knew Jesus, it was Mary, from conception, pregnancy, birth, and stinking manger to Cross grave and beyond.
The more I know Jesus the more I know He would rather suffer any outrage and scourge of men than suffer any detraction from His Holy Mother.
Not even the ignorant were spared mishandling the Ark of The Covenant, that contained The Word of God.
Eve was flesh of Adams flesh, Jesus was flesh of Mary’s flesh. If you have any Love and honour for Jesus, you will Love and honour Mary His mother as well.
Sir, if I honor my mom and dad, does that mean I place them in god-like status by glorifying them?
Of course not.
Mary was a human, like us all, who was born a sinner, according to the scriptures. She tells us that she is one who, like us all, needed a Redeemer.
Nowhere do we see that Jesus DNA is attached to Mary. We see that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary with God being human. Question, if an egg is fertilized with a sperm in a test tube and then the zygote is implanted into a woman who agrees to carry the zygote to term, is any of that hosts DNA present in the child that is implanted in the womb? The answer is no. There is no DNA sequence in the child because of the host. Therefore, nothing of Mary's DNA was in Jesus. If it was, then the curse of Adam would have been upon Jesus and he would have been born in corruption.
Sir, the Bible does not worship Mary, ever. It honors her, but it never worships her. You and your church have created a pagan idol and worship it in place of God. That is a serious offense to God who is the only one we worship.
In addition, if you are placing Mary on such a pedestal it means you do not know Jesus nearly as well as you think you do. Jesus never called for his mom to be worshipped and neither does the Bible, the very Word of God.
Mary is not mentioned in Revelation 12.
Wrong. Jesus is Mary’s seed.
“And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; ”
Jesus is Mary’s seed by The Holy Spirit.
Jesus is every part from her DNA physically. That’s why she was preserved from all stain of sin.
No woman could conceive The Word incarnate in any sin.
Catholics fulfil scripture calling her the most blessed of all women, protestants and Baptist’s have zero feast days honouring her as such. They fall over themselves detracting from her and counting her lower than dog poo.
Mary is the Throne that The Eternal Father placed His Beloved Son in this fallen world.
Mary is the living Throne of God, The Ark of The New Covenant
The Ark of the Old Covenant was the prefigurement of Mary, she is the Throne of The Eternal Word, Jesus our King.
The verse you quote is God speaking to Adam and Eve, not Mary. If you are going to quote scripture you will need to know the context or else you will be misusing scripture.Wrong. Jesus is Mary’s seed.
“And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; ”
Jesus is Mary’s seed by The Holy Spirit.
Jesus is every part from her DNA physically. That’s why she was preserved from all stain of sin.
No woman could conceive The Word incarnate in any sin.
Catholics fulfil scripture calling her the most blessed of all women, protestants and Baptist’s have zero feast days honouring her as such. They fall over themselves detracting from her and counting her lower than dog poo.
Mary is the Throne that The Eternal Father placed His Beloved Son in this fallen world.
Mary is the living Throne of God, The Ark of The New Covenant
The Ark of the Old Covenant was the prefigurement of Mary, she is the Throne of The Eternal Word, Jesus our King.
Jesus was placed in Mary's womb. Nowhere is Mary's genetics mentioned.
"In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. And the virgin’s name was Mary. And he came to her and said, “Greetings, O favored one, the Lord is with you!” But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and tried to discern what sort of greeting this might be. And the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.”
- Luke 1:26-33
"Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit. And her husband Joseph, being a just man and unwilling to put her to shame, resolved to divorce her quietly. But as he considered these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.” All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet: “Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel” (which means, God with us). When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him: he took his wife, but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus."
- Matthew 1:18-25
I understand that your church has taught you something else from its traditions, however, the Bible doesn't teach that Jesus is genetically connected to Mary. If Jesus was connected then he would have been born with the curse of Adam and been by nature a sinner, which Jesus was not.
We will disagree.
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