The Book of Ephesians

[Revmitchell]

If you could read the previous discussions on this board where my beliefs have been the subject of debate, you would see that I do not fit into "Calvinism" as it is used on this board.

I don't care. Be what you want.

 

[Revmitchell]

Well, since I have not read Calvin's writings myself, I did some research by others and found this:

“Now we understand that we are made partakers of all his blessings by means of faith; for this it is which brings us into communication with Christ, in order that he may dwell in us, that we may be ingrafted into him as our root, that we may be members of his body, that we may live in him, and he in us, and possess him, with all his benefits. And that it may not be thought strange that we attribute such virtue to faith, we do not take it for a fleeting opinion, but for a certainty which we have of the promises of God, in which all these blessings are contained, and by which we embrace our Lord Jesus Christ as the surety of all our salvation, and apply to our own use what he has received of God his Father to impart unto us. This faith we likewise know that we cannot have if it be not given us from above, and as Scripture declares, (Ephesians 2:9; 1:18) till the Holy Spirit enlightens us to comprehend what is beyond all human sense, and seals in our hearts what we ought to believe” [John Calvin, Selected Works of Calvin Volume 2 (The Comprehensive John Calvin Collection, Ages Digital Library, 1998), 138].

- C. Gordon Olson on John Calvin and the Gift of Faith - Alpha and Omega Ministries (aomin.org)

(emphasis mine)

I do not know the timing as to when Calvin wrote what you quoted or what James Swan quoted.

I don't know either but you are still, on your own, unable to defend your own position.

 

[KenH]

I don't know either but you are still, on your own, unable to defend your own position.

Have you stopped to consider that I am busy this morning and don't have the time at the moment to write something of sufficient length on the subject? If my day allows, then I will attempt to do so later today. Right now, I must get about other items in my day.

 

[taisto]

Faithfulness and the faith spoken of in Ephesians 2 are not the same thing. The faithfulness in Galatians is the enduring actions of a believer. Not sure why that needs explaining.

Explain.
How is the "faith" inherent in all humans (as you claim) different from the fruit of the Spirit that produces faithfulness?

 

[Marooncat79]

You forgot Galatians 4:26

 

[JD731]

There’s ‘literally’ NO distinction made between the two, the two have now been made one:

14 For he is our peace, who made both one, and brake down the middle wall of partition,
15 having abolished in the flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace; Eph 2

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice: and they shall become one flock, one shepherd. Jn 10

And the Spirit bade me go with them, making no distinction...Acts 11:12

and he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. Acts 15:9

even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction; Ro 3:22

For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek: for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich unto all that call upon him: Ro 9:12

For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek: for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich unto all that call upon him: Ro 10:12

where there cannot be Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, bondman, freeman; but Christ is all, and in all. Col 3:11

There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female; for ye all are one man in Christ Jesus. Gal 3:28

For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free; and were all made to drink of one Spirit. 1 Cor 12:13

15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. Gal 6

2 Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the concision:
3 for we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God, and glory in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh: Phil 3

Be honest and agree with me that you are just being silly and you are not understanding what is being said and change your mind so you don't continue to embarrass yourself.

Conside this:

There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female; for ye all are one man in Christ Jesus. Gal 3:28

Explain how you are living in a world without a difference in males and females in the body of Christ. Have you gone woke on us? Good grief man.

 

[Van]

Sir, how does a dead person go through the door in your analogy?
Also, none of my charges are false. I have broken down exactly what you have said. If anything, you are stating one thing and then denying it while still stating it. It's like listening to a person with dual personalities contradicting themselves.

So, I am not in any denial, but you certainly are in denial as you speak one thing and then turn around and deny what you said.

Sir, I have no delusions of persuading you. Thank you for the conversation, but if we have nothing else new to say, let's shake hands and call it a day.

Sir, scripture says spiritually dead people sometimes seek God. Deal with is, scripture and stop worrying about my views.

 

[taisto]

Sir, scripture says spiritually dead people sometimes seek God. Deal with is, scripture and stop worrying about my views.

Where does scripture explicitly say that?

What you are doing is you are reading biblical narrative and demanding that those people are seeking God rather than God drawing them to himself, which is what the Bible actually says.

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day."
- John 6:44

 

[KenH]

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day."
- John 6:44

The Greek word is "ἕλκω" which means to "drag off" per Strong's Concordance.

 

[KenH]

Sigh, Paul was talking to believers who were acting like lost people.

No. In 1 Corinthians 2:14 the apostle Paul speaks about anyone who has not been given spiritual life through the regeneration of the Holy Spirit. He is not referring to those to whom God has granted spiritual life. After the Holy Spirit regenerated me, He did not regenerate my vile flesh. My vile flesh is still bound for the grave(unless Christ returns before that happens and even then it must be changed at His coming). My flesh is still natural, still given to the infirmities, the lusts of the flesh. Believe me when I say that I have to deal with it constantly. 1 Peter 1:23 refers to believers as having been born again of incorruptible seed, not corruptible, yet their bodies are still corruptible, and in 1 Peter 1:22 it is their souls which have been purified through the Holy Spirit.

The apostle Paul, years after his spiritual regeneration described his flesh as still being carnal, sold under sin(Romans 7:14). And this led him to cry out at the end of the chapter, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. (Romans 7:24-25)

So, clearly, the believers body is still subject to corruption even after regeneration. Thus, 1 Corinthians 2:14, in referring to the "natural man", is referring to all those in a state of unregeneracy. And, clearly, those in 1 Corinthians 2:15 are all those who have been born again, made spiritually alive by the Holy Spirit.

That is the contrast being shown in those two verses. Every unregenerated person cannot understand spiritual things. Every regenerated person understands spiritual things, even though his flesh is still in a state of corruption.

 

[kyredneck]

Be honest and agree with me that you are just being silly and you are not understanding what is being said and change your mind so you don't continue to embarrass yourself.

If I were to 'agree' with you then I would not be honest with myself, and, I don't feel the least embarrassed.

Conside this:

There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female; for ye all are one man in Christ Jesus. Gal 3:28

Explain how you are living in a world without a difference in males and females in the body of Christ. Have you gone woke on us? Good grief man.

Good grief man, have you grown dense? Look at the context this passage is pulled from. The gist is simply that, in Christ, 'God is no respecter of persons'. In Christ we're all equal. We're all 'sons of God'. Galatians 3:26-28

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
"28. There is in this sonship by faith in Christ, no class privileged above another, as the Jews under the law had been above the Gentiles (Ro 10:12; 1Co 12:13; Col 3:11).
bond nor free—Christ alike belongs to both by faith; whence he puts "bond" before "free." Compare Note, see on [2342]1Co 7:21, 22; [2343]Eph 6:8.

neither male nor female—rather, as Greek, "there is not male and female." There is no distinction into male and female. Difference of sex makes no difference in Christian privileges. But under the law the male sex had great privileges. Males alone had in their body circumcision, the sign of the covenant (contrast baptism applied to male and female alike); they alone were capable of being kings and priests, whereas all of either sex are now "kings and priests unto God" (Re 1:6); they had prior right to inheritances. In the resurrection the relation of the sexes shall cease (Lu 20:35).

one—Greek, "one man"; masculine, not neuter, namely "one new man" in Christ (Eph 2:15)."

 

[Revmitchell]

Have you stopped to consider that I am busy this morning and don't have the time at the moment to write something of sufficient length on the subject? If my day allows, then I will attempt to do so later today. Right now, I must get about other items in my day.

Uh no, I haven't. You are welcome to post short curt answers that fail to actually deal with the issue but I reject this excuse. If you have time to stop your so called busy day and respond at all then you have time to respond appropriately. If you truly do not then maybe it is a sign that you should not have responded at all. Either you are unable to defend your position or you are irresponsible with your busy time.

 

[KenH]

Uh no, I haven't. You are welcome to post short curt answers that fail to actually deal with the issue but I reject this excuse. If you have time to stop your so called busy day and respond at all then you have time to respond appropriately. If you truly do not then maybe it is a sign that you should not have responded at all. Either you are unable to defend your position or you are irresponsible with your busy time.

Seems rather odd that you would write this post, since I have defended the Biblical position on 1 Corinthians 2:14 in my post #91 above, which I posted before I went to bed last night.

 

[Revmitchell]

Explain.
How is the "faith" inherent in all humans (as you claim) different from the fruit of the Spirit that produces faithfulness?

Well I have explained it pretty clearly but I am willing to go into more detail for those who struggle with this issue. First indication that it is "different" is the context. Second is that one is a benefit of being saved whereas the other is prior to salvation. One comes from the indwelling of the Spirit the other comes from hearing the gospel.

However, this fruit of the Spirit is not a gift that is imposed on us it is an enablement as a result of the indwelling of the Spirit. It is a result of our submission to the Spirit but not fully imposed by the Spirit.

 

[kyredneck]

the context

18 For the word of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us who are saved it is the power of God. 1 Cor,1
14 Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged. 1 Cor 2

 

[Van]

Where does scripture explicitly say that?

What you are doing is you are reading biblical narrative and demanding that those people are seeking God rather than God drawing them to himself, which is what the Bible actually says.

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day."
- John 6:44

Say what? "Sir, scripture says spiritually dead people sometimes seek God. Deal with is, scripture and stop worrying about my views." Luke 13:24.

Did anyone deny God "draws" attracts" the lost through the lovingkindness demonstrated in His Gospel of Christ? Nope

 

[taisto]

Say what? "Sir, scripture says spiritually dead people sometimes seek God. Deal with is, scripture and stop worrying about my views." Luke 13:24.

Did anyone deny God "draws" attracts" the lost through the lovingkindness demonstrated in His Gospel of Christ? Nope

I am sure you realize that Luke 13:24 is not a verse to hang your theology on.

"And someone said to him, “Lord, will those who are saved be few?” And he said to them, “Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. When once the master of the house has risen and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us,’ then he will answer you, ‘I do not know where you come from.’ Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’ But he will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you come from. Depart from me, all you workers of evil!’ In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God but you yourselves cast out. And people will come from east and west, and from north and south, and recline at table in the kingdom of God. And behold, some are last who will be first, and some are first who will be last.”
- Luke 13:23-30

John 6 tells you that God must draw someone to himself. What you imagine as "seeking" is really God drawing.
Also note that in your passage, the master of the house determines entry, not the person's outside the house.

Do you have an actual verse that says spiritually dead people can sometimes seek God? If not, you need to stop saying something the Bible does not state nor imply.

 

[Van]

I am sure you realize that Luke 13:24 is not a verse to hang your theology on.

"And someone said to him, “Lord, will those who are saved be few?” And he said to them, “Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. When once the master of the house has risen and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us,’ then he will answer you, ‘I do not know where you come from.’ Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’ But he will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you come from. Depart from me, all you workers of evil!’ In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God but you yourselves cast out. And people will come from east and west, and from north and south, and recline at table in the kingdom of God. And behold, some are last who will be first, and some are first who will be last.”
- Luke 13:23-30

John 6 tells you that God must draw someone to himself. What you imagine as "seeking" is really God drawing.
Also note that in your passage, the master of the house determines entry, not the person's outside the house.

Do you have an actual verse that says spiritually dead people can sometimes seek God? If not, you need to stop staying something the Bible does not state nor imply.

Did I say I am hanging Biblical Theology on Luke 13:24 alone? Nope.
You asked for a verse which has lost sinners seeking God, I provided it. Then you ignore the fact "many" were seeking to enter the narrow way that leads to life.

And so it goes...

 

[taisto]

Did I say I am hanging Biblical Theology on Luke 13:24 alone? Nope.
You asked for a verse which has lost sinners seeking God, I provided it. Then you ignore the fact "many" were seeking to enter the narrow way that leads to life.

And so it goes...

You used Luke 13:24 as your prooftext, and made it your theological stance for men sometimes seeking God.
The text shows you that is inaccurate.
You have ignored John 6, Romans 3, and Ephesians 2 as source texts that tell you God must do the work of saving souls and bringing them to himself.

I await that verse that specifically states what you have told us, that "men sometimes seek God."

 

[Van]

You used Luke 13:24 as your prooftext, and made it your theological stance for men sometimes seeking God.
The text shows you that is inaccurate.
You have ignored John 6, Romans 3, and Ephesians 2 as source texts that tell you God must do the work of saving souls and bringing them to himself.

I await that verse that specifically states what you have told us, that "men sometimes seek God."

Did I use Luke 13:24 as a "proof-text?"
The text shows accurately that many of the spiritually dead seek to enter the narrow way that leads to life.
I have not ignored any verse, passage, chapter of book of the entire bible.
Did I say God does not "work to the saving souls and bring them to Himself?" Nope

And so it goes...