When was the RCC founded?

[David Kent]

Were not the Montanists considered heretics by Rome? The church insisted on rebaptising Monranists who returned, just as Montanists Baptised the who joined them.

No answer???

Tertullian was a Montanist. The Montanists were the Phrygian heresy that you mentioned. They were also called cataphrygian as they re-baptised people joining them. They started several doctrines later absorbed bt Rome, such as 2 types of sin venial and mortal. some sins were pardonable and some were to da

Tertullian became one of the most extreme of them. He considered adultery to be the same act as marriage so Christians would be best to be celibate.

 

[David Kent]

It’s full of misunderstandings.

Mary is Queen of Heaven because you can see it in Revelation.

She is the mother of the one who rules the nations with an Iron sceptre.

Crowned by stars and standing on the moon.

The queen of heaven is mentioned in the bible,
Jeremiah 7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.
Jeremiah 44:17-19 But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil. But since we left off to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, we have wanted all things, and have been consumed by the sword and by the famine. And when we burned incense to the queen of heaven, and poured out drink offerings unto her, did we make her cakes to worship her, and pour out drink offerings unto her, without our men?
Jeremiah 44:25-27 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel, saying; Ye and your wives have both spoken with your mouths, and fulfilled with your hand, saying, We will surely perform our vows that we have vowed, to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her: ye will surely accomplish your vows, and surely perform your vows.
Therefore hear ye the word of the LORD, all Judah that dwell in the land of Egypt; Behold, I have sworn by my great name, saith the LORD, that my name shall no more be named in the mouth of any man of Judah in all the land of Egypt, saying, The Lord GOD liveth. Behold, I will watch over them for evil, and not for good:

So is worshipping the queen of heaven a good thing when it provokes God to anger?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The queen of heaven is mentioned in the bible,
Jeremiah 7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.
Jeremiah 44:17-19 But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil. But since we left off to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, we have wanted all things, and have been consumed by the sword and by the famine. And when we burned incense to the queen of heaven, and poured out drink offerings unto her, did we make her cakes to worship her, and pour out drink offerings unto her, without our men?
Jeremiah 44:25-27 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel, saying; Ye and your wives have both spoken with your mouths, and fulfilled with your hand, saying, We will surely perform our vows that we have vowed, to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her: ye will surely accomplish your vows, and surely perform your vows.
Therefore hear ye the word of the LORD, all Judah that dwell in the land of Egypt; Behold, I have sworn by my great name, saith the LORD, that my name shall no more be named in the mouth of any man of Judah in all the land of Egypt, saying, The Lord GOD liveth. Behold, I will watch over them for evil, and not for good:

So is worshipping the queen of heaven a good thing when it provokes God to anger?

 

[JonC]

Was the founding actually about 300 AD?

The Plain Truth about the Roman Catholic Church

I'd say 380 AD.

Catholicism is a blend of Christianity and the pagan religions of the Roman Empire shortly after Rome made Christianity the official religion of the Empire.

But the Catholic Church has also reinvented itself several times throughout history.

 

[Salty]

I'd say 380 AD.

Catholicism is a blend of Christianity and the pagan religions of the Roman Empire shortly after Rome made Christianity the official religion of the Empire.

But the Catholic Church has also reinvented itself several times throughout history.

So you are saying that the current RCC - would be nothing like the RCC in the 4th century?

 

[Salty]

Montanism - Wikipedia

 

[JonC]

So you are saying that the current RCC - would be nothing like the RCC in the 4th century?

Yes.

 

[37818]

The earliest reference to the "catholic church" is in a mid 3rd century forgery attributed to Ignatius of Antioch. If the common Protestant Catholic acceptance is used, the date becomes the early 2nd century. The Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans.

 

[David Kent]

Montanism - Wikipedia

Or you could read, Heresy and Christian doctrine by E de Pressense pages 101-124 chapter on Montanism. He gives quotes for everything including Tertullian and refers back to his writings.

 

[JonC]

The earliest reference to the "catholic church" is in a mid 3rd century forgery attributed to Ignatius of Antioch. If the common Protestant Catholic acceptance is used, the date becomes the early 2nd century. The Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans.

We need to be careful with "catholic church". The word can (and often) simply means the universal church or the "Bride".

Even in Baptist history it is often used this way (JR Graves spoke of the "catholic church"...little "c"....to speak of baptistic churches.....as did RBC Howell).

 

[Cathode]

The earliest reference to the "catholic church" is in a mid 3rd century forgery attributed to Ignatius of Antioch. If the common Protestant Catholic acceptance is used, the date becomes the early 2nd century. The Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans.

Baptist’s and Protestants call it a forgery 1600 years later because it undermines their position.

Fact is this is an Apostolic Father telling you the Truth.

If people love the truth, they are fine. If they prefer the lie, they die.

 

[37818]

We need to be careful with "catholic church". The word can (and often) simply means the universal church or the "Bride".

Even in Baptist history it is often used this way (JR Graves spoke of the "catholic church"...little "c"....to speak of baptistic churches.....as did RBC Howell).

Do you have an earlier reference? Typically those who cited said epistle use "Catholic Church."

 

[37818]

Baptist’s and Protestants call it a forgery 1600 years later because it undermines their position.

Fact is this is an Apostolic Father telling you the Truth.

If people love the truth, they are fine. If they prefer the lie, they die.

You suppose. The fact is, those teachings of said writings are not supported by the NT in any way.

Are all the letters of Ignatius of Antioch forgeries?

 

[Cathode]

We need to be careful with "catholic church". The word can (and often) simply means the universal church or the "Bride".

Even in Baptist history it is often used this way (JR Graves spoke of the "catholic church"...little "c"....to speak of baptistic churches.....as did RBC Howell).

“For in the Catholic Church, not to speak of the purest wisdom, to the knowledge of which a few spiritual, men attain in this life…–not to speak of this wisdom, which you do not believe to be in the Catholic Church, there are many other things which most justly keep me in her bosom. The consent of peoples and nations…so does her authority…the succession of priests…[a]nd so, lastly, does the name itself of Catholic, which, not without reason, amid so many heresies, the Church has thus retained; so that, though all heretics wish to be called Catholics, yet when a stranger asks where the Catholic Church meets, no heretic will venture to point to his own chapel or house. “ Augustine 397 Ad

“[T]he Article, In one Holy Catholic Church,’ on which, though one might say many things, we will speak but briefly. It is called Catholic then because it extends over all the world, from one end of the earth to the other; and because it teaches universally and completely one and all the doctrines which ought to come to men’s knowledge, concerning things both visible and invisible, heavenly and earthly… for this cause the Faith has securely delivered to thee now the Article, And in one Holy Catholic Church;’ that thou mayest avoid their wretched meetings, and ever abide with the Holy Church Catholic in which thou wast regenerated. And if ever thou art sojourning in cities, inquire not simply where the Lord’s House is (for the other sects of the profane also attempt to call their own dens houses of the Lord), nor merely where the Church is, but where is the Catholic Church. For this is the peculiar name of this Holy Church, the mother of us all, which is the spouse of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Only-begotten Son of God.” Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, 18:23,26 (A.D. 350).

Ask anyone today where the “Catholic Church” is in a town, and see where they direct you. Witness an ancient phenomenon.

Don’t say Roman Catholic, just ask where the “Catholic Church” is. Done it many times in a new place and it always leads to the same place I wanted.

 

[David Kent]

Yes.

Has Rome changed then?

 

[JonC]

Do you have an earlier reference? Typically those who cited said epistle use "Catholic Church."

The epistles don't use that term. But many in the earlier church did.

Ignatius wrote that where ever Jesus is (with the people) there is the catholic church. This is referring to the Body of Christ, or the Bride (or the "universal church")....that is, Christ in His people.

This was around 100 AD. I don't recall exactly.

But "catholic" refered to the universal church. JR Graves, much later, used "catholic" the same way.

What the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Catholics do is similar to what the CoC does. They see "catholic" and think it's them.

 

[JonC]

Has Rome changed then?

Yes. Rome has changed since the 4th Century. The Catholic Church had changed several times since the 4th Century as well.

Initially it remained very much Christian. But as Rome blended with Christianity it became equally pagan.

It's like Regla de Ocha. You have a mixture of Catholic Christianity, Afro-American paganism, and spiritualism.

Rome made her citizens "Christians". But this form of Christianity was a mixture of Christianity and Roman paganism. This became the Catholic Church and in the 11th Century the Roman Catholic Church and Orthodox Catholic Church.

The reason they are Christian is if you strip away the Catholic paganism the gospel is still there (people are saved not because of but despite Catholic dogma).

 

[JonC]

“For in the Catholic Church, not to speak of the purest wisdom, to the knowledge of which a few spiritual, men attain in this life…–not to speak of this wisdom, which you do not believe to be in the Catholic Church, there are many other things which most justly keep me in her bosom. The consent of peoples and nations…so does her authority…the succession of priests…[a]nd so, lastly, does the name itself of Catholic, which, not without reason, amid so many heresies, the Church has thus retained; so that, though all heretics wish to be called Catholics, yet when a stranger asks where the Catholic Church meets, no heretic will venture to point to his own chapel or house. “ Augustine 397 Ad

“[T]he Article, In one Holy Catholic Church,’ on which, though one might say many things, we will speak but briefly. It is called Catholic then because it extends over all the world, from one end of the earth to the other; and because it teaches universally and completely one and all the doctrines which ought to come to men’s knowledge, concerning things both visible and invisible, heavenly and earthly… for this cause the Faith has securely delivered to thee now the Article, And in one Holy Catholic Church;’ that thou mayest avoid their wretched meetings, and ever abide with the Holy Church Catholic in which thou wast regenerated. And if ever thou art sojourning in cities, inquire not simply where the Lord’s House is (for the other sects of the profane also attempt to call their own dens houses of the Lord), nor merely where the Church is, but where is the Catholic Church. For this is the peculiar name of this Holy Church, the mother of us all, which is the spouse of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Only-begotten Son of God.” Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, 18:23,26 (A.D. 350).

Ask anyone today where the “Catholic Church” is in a town, and see where they direct you. Witness an ancient phenomenon.

Don’t say Roman Catholic, just ask where the “Catholic Church” is. Done it many times in a new place and it always leads to the same place I wanted.

Yes. I agree that the Catholic Church started in the 4th century. Quoting 4th century Catholics dies not prove otherwise.

There is the "catholic church" of Ignatius (he was referring to the "Bride", where ever Christians are gathered as a church).

But that isn't what you are talking about. You are talking about the Catholic Church of Augustine.

I actually made the point that the Roman Catholic sect did not exist at that time (it was a unified Catholic Church). Do no, you get no points there.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The RCC reconfigured itself around 1962 during Vatican 2. Before that, it was a dynastic mess so you do the math.

 

[David Kent]

Yes. Rome has changed since the 4th Century. The Catholic Church had changed several times since the 4th Century as well.

Initially it remained very much Christian. But as Rome blended with Christianity it became equally pagan.

It's like Regla de Ocha. You have a mixture of Catholic Christianity, Afro-American paganism, and spiritualism.

Rome made her citizens "Christians". But this form of Christianity was a mixture of Christianity and Roman paganism. This became the Catholic Church and in the 11th Century the Roman Catholic Church and Orthodox Catholic Church.

The reason they are Christian is if you strip away the Catholic paganism the gospel is still there (people are saved not because of but despite Catholic dogma).

I was really meaning the Roman church since it became pagan at the time of Constantine. Since then it became the old Roman empire in a hidden format the mystery of iniquity, or the eighth head that was, and is not and yet is.