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John the Baptist.
- Thread starter 37818
- Start date
A better question is should we be calling him John.
"Baptist" is a transliteration (a word using the closest corresponding letters of a different alphabet or script) from the Greek.
Ἰωάννης ὁ βαπτιστὴς = John the Baptist
If you were transported back in time and saw Jesus or John in a crowd and yelled out their name neither of them would turn around. They wouldn't recognize their anglicized name.
(or maybe everyone would turn around - there is no "J" in Hebrew, Greek or Latin)
Rob
"Baptist" is a transliteration (a word using the closest corresponding letters of a different alphabet or script) from the Greek.
Ἰωάννης ὁ βαπτιστὴς = John the Baptist
If you were transported back in time and saw Jesus or John in a crowd and yelled out their name neither of them would turn around. They wouldn't recognize their anglicized name.
(or maybe everyone would turn around - there is no "J" in Hebrew, Greek or Latin)
Rob
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atpollard
Well-Known Member
Both.
The most literal translation of the various forms of “βαπτιστής” would be “Immerser”, however, the word is only used as an epithet or surname for the forerunner of Christ:
- [Mat 3:1 NASB20] 1 Now in those days John the Baptist[G910] came, preaching in the wilderness of Judea, saying,
- [Mat 11:11 NASB20] 11 "Truly I say to you, among those born of women there has not arisen [anyone] greater than John the Baptist[G910]! Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
- [Mat 11:12 NASB20] 12 "And from the days of John the Baptist[G910] until now the kingdom of heaven has been treated violently, and violent men take it by force.
- [Mat 14:2 NASB20] 2 and said to his servants, "This is John the Baptist[G910]; he himself has been raised from the dead, and that is why miraculous powers are at work in
- [Mat 14:8 NASB20] 8 And after being prompted by her mother, she said, "Give me the head of John the Baptist[G910] here on a platter."
- [Mat 16:14 NASB20] 14 And they said, "Some [say] John the Baptist[G910]; and others, Elijah; and [still] others, Jeremiah, or one of the [other] prophets."
- [Mat 17:13 NASB20] 13 Then the disciples understood that He had spoken to them about John the Baptist[G910].
- [Mar 6:25 NASB20] 25 Immediately she came in a hurry to the king and asked, saying, "I want you to give me at once the head of John the Baptist[G910] on a platter."
- [Mar 8:28 NASB20] 28 They told Him, saying, "John the Baptist[G910]; and others [say] Elijah; and others, one of the prophets."
- [Luk 7:20 NASB20] 20 When the men came to Him, they said, "John the Baptist[G910] has sent us to You, to ask, 'Are You the Coming One, or are we to look for another?'"
- [Luk 7:33 NASB20] 33 "For John the Baptist[G910] has come neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, 'He has a demon!
- [Luk 9:19 NASB20] 19 They answered and said, "John the Baptist[G910], and others [say] Elijah; but others, that one of the prophets of old has risen."
Given the UNIQUE application of the term to one and only one individual, “the Immersionist” becomes an equally valid translation since it caries less of the generic sense of “anyone who performs the action” that “the immerser” caries as an English connotation.
(my opinion)
I think the anglo saxons used a word that meant washer?
He should be considered as the second baptizer of God's nation in water and this one identifying in connection with God the Son, which is Jesus Christ. The first baptism in water was through Moses in connection with God the Father, Three and one half years after John they were being baptized in water again in connection with God the Holy Spirit. The first baptism was after their birthday as a nation in the beginning of months. The Spirit baptism in Acts 2 was intended by God to be their spiritual birthday as a nation but for that to happen "every one of them" has to submit, which of course they didn't.
Here are some relative verses, certainly not an exhaustive list.
1Co 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Joh 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.
31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.
Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
At this point in time, just after the New Testament in the blood of God's Lamb had become effective, God sends out his men to say to those who are bidden, Israel, all thing are now ready, come, and they would not come, but just a few. The last two thousand year history would have been written much differently if they would have come.
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3 is primarily a kingdom message to Israel and is a kingdom gospel to them. Jesus Christ will not establish his earthly kingdom until every subject of his kingdom is born again. This is radically different to other earthly kingdoms. Our Lord Jesus is not going to conquer the subjects of his kingdom, he is going to convert them and he will rule over them who calls him "Lord" before they call him King.
Ro 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Let us all bow our knee to the Lord Jesus who is worthy of all our praise and worship.
God does things, like baptizes Israel, in threes.
37818
Well-Known Member
While your opinion is welcome. The subject of this thread was how best should John's title be treanslated, and was what was intended.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
"BAPTISM" IN THE KING JAMES VERSION
By Paul Kirkpatrick
See full article at ( 8.6.1 ) Why do some claim
that words such as “baptism” or “to baptize”
are inaccurate translations in the KJV?
CONTENTS AND SUMMARY
I. The Problem Stated.
Why do some claim that words such as "baptism" or "to baptize" are inaccurate
translations in the KJV?
II. Some Preliminary Consideration.
An analysis of the view that the KJV translators may not have been totally
honest when they chose to use words such as "baptism" and "to baptize"
rather than "immersion" or "to immerse."
III. Etymology of the Word "Baptism".
How did the words "baptism" and "to baptize" come to be used in the English language used by the KJV translators?
IV. History of Immersion for Baptism in England.
Did King James I of England or the KJV translators really use some other baptismal mode than immersion?
V. Semantical Relationship of "Baptism" to the KJV Translators.
Why it is illogical to claim that the KJV translators were not honest when they used the words "baptism" and "to baptize."
VI. Conclusions to be Drawn.
Why one can be confident that the KJV translators were not deceptive when they used such words as "baptism" and "to baptize."
There is a deeper spiritual meaning to baptism. The baptism in water is a natural picture for that spiritual doctrine of God. Definitely nothing but immersion in an abundance of water would serve to illustrate the doctrine. Not only the water is needed for this picture but the man is an integral part as well. All things of God has reason and purpose. The prudent man will ask questions of the text and will recognize the answer when he gets it. In this manner the deeper meanings are hidden. So. three men did the baptizing of Israel, Moses, John the Baptist, and Jesus Christ.
Mr 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he (Jesus) shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost. There is at least some sense that the water symbolizes Israel being immersed in Christ.
I am on topic.
37818
Well-Known Member
Transliterations sre not English English.
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37818
Well-Known Member
I started this thread. And it is your opinion, that you are on topic. The thread is about John's title and how it should be best translated.
37818
Well-Known Member
Most English translation use "John the Baptist."
MLV, Matthew 3:1, ". . . Now in those days John the Immerser* comes*, preaching in the wilderness of Judea, . . ."
LSV, Matthew,3:1, ". . . And in those days John the Immerser comes, proclaiming in the wilderness of Judea, . . ."
MLV, Matthew 3:1, ". . . Now in those days John the Immerser* comes*, preaching in the wilderness of Judea, . . ."
LSV, Matthew,3:1, ". . . And in those days John the Immerser comes, proclaiming in the wilderness of Judea, . . ."
What does the KJV say? That should settle it. Every one has only an opinion if there is not an authority line to settle the matter. There is.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
So, to Anglicize the surnames for an Anglo translation is stupido?
37818
Well-Known Member
No. So what, is the meaning of John's title merely just part of his name? Yeah, just sprinkle or pour water. The KJV says "baptize" not actually immersion.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
- GREEK NEW TESTAMENT
- Introduction 2.1
- #2.1 Scriptures for βαπτίζω 'baptizo' meaning 'baptize' Strong's 907
- #2.2 Scriptures for βάπτισμα 'baptisma' meaning 'baptism' Strong's 908
- #2.3 Scriptures for βάπτισμός 'baptismos' meaning 'washing' Strong's 909
This is a Greek word study about the meaning of the Greek verb βαπτίζω, 'baptizo' meaning 'baptize' Strong's 907. It gives every verse where the word 'baptizo' appears in the New Testament. To obtain a true understanding of this word these scriptures need to be meditated on and notes made of their meaning in different contexts. This requires putting scriptures together where they seem to have a similar meaning, and then meditating even more. The truth will be revealed by the Holy Spirit, who has been given to guide us into all truth (John 16:13). Wherever this word baptizo appears in the Greek, the translation of it is highlighted with yellow. If the word is in italics then there is no equivalent word for it in the Greek. Every blessing be to those who seek the truth of God's word.
See: GREEK WORD STUDIES βαπτίζω, 'baptizo' meaning 'baptize'
This is what Gil Rugh says;
The Origin and Meaning of "Baptism"
by Gil Rugh
The mode of baptism the Bible points to is immersion. Consider the word baptize. You may be aware that the word baptize and baptism are not English words but Greek words.
For example, the Greek word for baptize is baptizo. Instead of being translated into English, this word was transliterated. In transliteration, each letter of a foreign word is given its English equivalent. So baptizo becomes baptize, and baptizma becomes baptism.
There was a reason that the words for baptism were transliterated. Several centuries ago when the Bible was first translated into English in Great Britain, the Anglican Church in Britain practiced sprinkling as its mode of baptism.
The translators of the Bible could have gotten themselves into a great deal of trouble if they had translated this Greek word into English. Why? Because the word literally translates “to dip, plunge or immerse.” It is used in secular Greek of dyeing a garment, immersing it so that it is thoroughly covered. It is also used to describe a boat that has sunk beneath the water.
The meaning of the word is clear, but the translators did not wish to come into conflict with the beliefs of the Church of England, so they decided not to translate it, but transliterated it instead.
What would Matthew 28 look like if the word baptize were translated literally? “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, [immersing] them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you” (vv. 19, 20). There are other Greek words for sprinkling and pouring. The word immerse is an appropriate translation. It conveys that immersion is the biblical mode of baptism.
37818
Well-Known Member
I think you meant "what did William Tyndale say?", since the KJV translators followed him most of the time.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Right that is what Mr. Rugh says and is probably pretty commonly said, a lot.
I suppose there could be the element of it, without it being a dishonest translation effort based on these other points made;
These are the other arguments at my other post; John the Baptist.