Is there biblical support for Lord ship salvation?

[canadyjd]

I think scripture is clear that a right relationship with God will always result in a transformed life.

I do, however, understand the concern that we appear to be “fruit inspectors”.

peace to you

 

[Mikey]

Who is being wrong?

John Macarthur

 

[Silverhair]

The only requirement for salvation is faith to receive God's grace. But true faith will lead to good works because one of the things we as Christians believe is that Christ is also God and is the one who created and sustains the universe. When we come to know who Christ is and his sovereignty, the lordship aspect is automatically linked with his role as our savior. As Christians we understand the reality of truth and who God is and along with the regeneration of the Holy Spirit, this leads to submission to the Lordship of Christ. Dr. Charles Stanley

 

[JonC]

Never heard of this definition for repentance before. Care to elaborate? Do you have a theological or linguistic source for the definition?

Yes. I believe that repentance, in a biblical context, is to turn away from sin.

There are several sources for this definition.

Websters dictionary (granted, not a theological source) defines it as "to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one's life".

Wayne Grudem, in his Systematic Theology (Chapter 36) states that the word "repent" indicates a changing of mind, turning away.

In relation to the Christian life Bill Mounce defined it as "to undergo a change in frame of mind and feeling, to repent, Lk. 17:3, 4; to make a change of principle and practice, to reform, Mt. 3:2."


I am not a linguist, so if you believe those incorrect I gladly welcome your definition.

I studied theology (not language). I define repentance as changing one's mind in the context of the mind set on the flesh is death (turning from) and belief as the mind set on the Spirit (which is life).

 

[John of Japan]

"I think there is a danger. We have been preaching 'Believe', and we have not sufficiently said 'Repent, repent, repent,' and we still have to preach this truth, that unless a man will turn to God from idols, then his faith, though he boast of it, is dead and worthless. There is no question of precedence. The quality of faith must be repentance, and the dynamic of repentance must be that of faith, and when we urge upon men that they must believe on the Lord Jesus, we must say that belief means the submission to the Lordship, and that means turning from every other lord that has held dominion over the soul."

This is from G. Campbell Morgan and it's from a chapter on evangelistic preaching, invitations, and the method of follow up on those who come forward during a meeting. G. Campbell Morgan is a little before my time and I found out about him from an old book my dad had and from his connection with Martyn Lloyd-Jones.

Morgan was a great preacher, and IMO he got it almost right here. Repentance and faith are two parts of the same act, in my view (following John R. Rice and others here). In other words, in salvation the lost sinner repents (realizing he was a sinner on the way to Hell), and turns to Christ in faith. I illustrate this physically, by turning my body from one thing to another.

Soon after we arrived in Japan in 1981 I taught this to an English student of mine. He came back the next week and said, "I did it." Mystified, I said, "Did what?" He said, "Turned from my sin to Jesus." Later he went to the other side of Tokyo to start a church. I still have a letter from him somewhere.

John. I would value your weighing in on this. Do you think that MacArthur over reacted to the non lordship issues or is it wrong in your opinion to suggest that to a new convert?

I put surrender as part of the follow-up/discipleship process. After all, Romans 12:1-2 was written to Christians. So, yes, I believe that MacArthur over-reacted. He took the pendulum too far away from easy-believism and into dangerous territory.

I am also a fan of John R. Rice. In his book "You Must Be Born Again", there is one of those cards you can sign and send him. One of the boxes you can check off says this: "I am a poor lost sinner. I believe that Jesus died to save sinners. I take his word for it that he is ready to forgive and save me now. I rely on him and depend on him to be my savior. I give him my heart forever. By his grace I will claim him openly as my Savior and set out to live for him."

Thanks for the quote. However, Rice certainly did not believe in LS. In the quote you give, the "set out to live for him" is subsequent to salvation. Where the rubber meets the road is in evangelism. You can tell whether writer holds to LS by his method of evangelism, and Rice's books on evangelism do not advocate telling a lost soul to receive Christ as Lord.

It seems to me that giving him your heart and setting out to live for him would be another way of taking him as Lord. I never felt that this was not part of it until I encountered the evangelism style of the Hyles-Anderson school of Baptists in the '70's, which I disagreed with.

I have to reluctantly say that Rice held on to his friendship with Hyles too long. However, Rice's daughters did not think much of Hyles, if I may put it gently, and under their influence cracks appeared in the friendship. (See Ch. 15 of my biography of Rice.)

For sure, if Rice had known how the soul-winning at HAC was often (not always) carried on, he would have disagreed with it. Where I teach, we do not have a "Soul-Winner of the Year," and though evangelism is required of the students, no one asks them how many they led to Christ. That engenders carelessness with the Gospel, and spiritual pride.

Even John Owen, the Puritan, said that when you first come to Christ, you are coming to him with a primary interest in his office as a "Savior", and not as Lord. But then he went on to warn against thinking you could refuse to take him as Lord. Honestly, I never felt that the old school Baptists were guilty of this.

Refusing to make Christ as one's Lord after salvation has dire consequences.

 

[John of Japan]

Yes. I believe that repentance, in a biblical context, is to turn away from sin.

There are several sources for this definition.

Websters dictionary (granted, not a theological source) defines it as "to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one's life".

Wayne Grudem, in his Systematic Theology (Chapter 36) states that the word "repent" indicates a changing of mind, turning away.

In relation to the Christian life Bill Mounce defined it as "to undergo a change in frame of mind and feeling, to repent, Lk. 17:3, 4; to make a change of principle and practice, to reform, Mt. 3:2."

I am not a linguist, so if you believe those incorrect I gladly welcome your definition.

I studied theology (not language). I define repentance as changing one's mind in the context of the mind set on the flesh is death (turning from) and belief as the mind set on the Spirit (which is life).

Thanks for the clarification. But what I was objecting to was nothing you post here, but your statement:

But at the same time turning from ourselves as lord of our lives to Christ as Lord is called repentance, a key part of saving faith (Christ commanded "repent and believe").

This is semantically different from "turning from sin." "Turning from ourselves as lord" is not repentance by any definition I know of.

 

[JonC]

Thanks for the clarification. But what I was objecting to was nothing you post here, but your statement:


This is semantically different from "turning from sin." "Turning from ourselves as lord" is not repentance by any definition I know of.

I was nott talking semantics, but theologically. I agree the word is much simpler than the concept I introduced in the post.

I believe that the "mind set on the flesh" is a mind set on the desires of the flesh (set on us, on what we desire, prior to salvation).

How do you view that term ("a mind set on the flesh")?

 

[DaveXR650]

The only requirement for salvation is faith to receive God's grace. But true faith will lead to good works because one of the things we as Christians believe is that Christ is also God and is the one who created and sustains the universe. When we come to know who Christ is and his sovereignty, the lordship aspect is automatically linked with his role as our savior. As Christians we understand the reality of truth and who God is and along with the regeneration of the Holy Spirit, this leads to submission to the Lordship of Christ. Dr. Charles Stanley

I think that is a pretty balanced statement. I knew that over the years that Dr. Stanley seemed to be all over the place on this and it only took a minute to find someone taking him to task for saying that.
Charles Stanley’s Confusing Comments on Repentance and Salvation, In Touch Ministries Broadcast, July 7, 2016 – Grace Evangelical Society
It's good to see this though to help people realize that MacArthur was responding to a real thing that is really being taught. I mean, if regeneration leads to submission to the Lordship of Christ is it allowed for a Bible teacher to say if it doesn't then maybe you have a real problem? Or do you really have a problem. According to that website, all is well regardless.

 

[John of Japan]

I was nott talking semantics, but theologically. I agree the word is much simpler than the concept I introduced in the post.

Fair enough.

I believe that the "mind set on the flesh" is a mind set on the desires of the flesh (set on us, on what we desire, prior to salvation).

How do you view that term ("a mind set on the flesh")?

I don't recall ever hearing this phrase. As long as it is not Scripture, I have to yield to the inventor of the phrase (not really one term). Do you have a source in Scripture for the phrase?

 

[John of Japan]

Yes. I believe that repentance, in a biblical context, is to turn away from sin.

There are several sources for this definition.

Websters dictionary (granted, not a theological source) defines it as "to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one's life".

Wayne Grudem, in his Systematic Theology (Chapter 36) states that the word "repent" indicates a changing of mind, turning away.

In relation to the Christian life Bill Mounce defined it as "to undergo a change in frame of mind and feeling, to repent, Lk. 17:3, 4; to make a change of principle and practice, to reform, Mt. 3:2."

I am not a linguist, so if you believe those incorrect I gladly welcome your definition.

I studied theology (not language). I define repentance as changing one's mind in the context of the mind set on the flesh is death (turning from) and belief as the mind set on the Spirit (which is life).

I believe the proper definition of matanoia in the NT is a change of mind on a fundamental issue. Such a true change of mind will unavoidably result in a change of action.

So, while I do not include surrender of the will to Christ as Lord as part of the Gospel (cf. 1 Cor. 15, and the entire book of Acts), I do see it as a necessary corollary. Someone who truly trusts Christ will then turn to Him as Lord, though that is a separate action. This is not to say all Christians follow Christ as Lord.

 

[MB]

First, Jesus said not all that call Him “Lord” will enter the Kingdom. His answer to these people is He never knew them. Therefore, to be in a right relationship with God (salvation) is far more than mouthing the the word “Lord”. It requires Jesus to “know you” in that right relationship.

Second, 1 Corinthians 12:3 “no can say Jesus is Lord, but by the Spirit” is also referring to much more than mouthing the word “Lord”. For someone to come into that right relationship with God (salvation) where Jesus is, in fact, Lord of their life and “knows them” requires the work of God Holy Spirit. That will result 100% of the time in a transformed life.

Concerning “Lordship Salvation” my understanding from reading MacAuthor is the expectation of a profession of faith is a transformed life.

I cannot declare anyone “saved” or “unsaved”. However, If your life hasn’t been transformed, then you shouldn’t have assurance of your salvation. It could be you are saved but immature or it could mean you were never known by our Lord Jesus to be in that right relationship.

LS is a cautionary rebuke of “easy believism”, where people are declared “saved” if they say a prayer, repeat after me, etc… and then never show evidence God Holy Spirit indwelling.. I.e. a transformed life.

Peace to you

I understand what you are saying here..In your opinion does this change mean the person saved becomes righteous? or no longer sins

 

[JonC]

Fair enough.


I don't recall ever hearing this phrase. As long as it is not scripture, I have to yield to the inventor of the phrase (not really one term). Do you have a source in Scripture for the phrase?

This is what I mean by the mind set on the flesh vs the mind set on the Spirit:

Romans 8:5–8 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

 

[JonC]

I believe the proper definition of matanoia in the NT is a change of mind on a fundamental issue. Such a true change of mind will unavoidably result in a change of action.

So, while I do not include surrender of the will to Christ as Lord as part of the Gospel (cf. 1 Cor. 15, and the entire book of Acts), I do see it as a necessary corollary. Someone who truly trusts Christ will then turn to Him as Lord, though that is a separate action. This is not to say all Christians follow Christ as Lord.

I kinda agree (which means I kinda disagree....but I'm a glass half full kinda guy ).

Jesus proclaimed to the Jews that the Kingdom was at hand and said to repent and believe the gospel (Mark 1:15).

I believe this is changing one's mind (from a mind set on the flesh) and believing the gospel.

But I'm not sure that this counts as a fundamental issue in the way you use "fundamental issue".

 

[John of Japan]

This is what I mean by the mind set on the flesh vs the mind set on the Spirit:

Romans 8:5–8 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Okay, thanks for the clarification.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

What a wonderful expression of Christian faith. I’m sure J Mac could learn a lot from such keen intellect.

Please write a book that explains why he’s wrong.

peace to you

Forget… that. As far as writing books, I will leave that to those with all that (perseived) intellectual superiority.

 

[John of Japan]

I kinda agree (which means I kinda disagree....but I'm a glass half full kinda guy ).

If it's an ice latte, I'll drink the other half.

Jesus proclaimed to the Jews that the Kingdom was at hand and said to repent and believe the gospel (Mark 1:15).

I believe this is changing one's mind (from a mind set on the flesh) and believing the gospel.

But I'm not sure that this counts as a fundamental issue in the way you use "fundamental issue".

If that's not a fundamental issue, nothing is!

Fundamental issues in the salvation of a sinner would include understanding and changing one's mind about sin and one's self as a sinner, understanding that Christ died for those sins, and understanding that Christ rose from the dead, thus guaranteeing eternal life to the one who believes.

Neglect of these issues is where easy believism enters.
1. If the witness does not talk about sin, the Holy Spirit will not convict (John 16:8-9, of course), and thus repentance will not take place.
2. If the witness does not tell the prospect that Christ died for his or her sin, then the supposed salvation might depend on a prayer or simply going forward. How many times have we heard of someone inoculated against the Gospel because they "said a prayer"?
3. "And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins" (1 Cor. 15:17). As a missionary, I saw tracts sometimes that left out the resurrection, and thus had an incomplete Gospel. I avoided those. The resurrection is a very important part of the Gospel.

So here is where easy believism comes in: "Jesus died for you and loves you. Just pray this prayer...." (Soul-winner: Oh goody, I can chalk up another one!)

 

[MB]

I am not a calvinist but I have to ask, why would you not think Christ was your Lord if you were trusting in Him to save you? When a person freely trusts in Christ Jesus for their salvation they are saying that He is the only one that can save them. Christ did not need us to make Him Lord. He was, is and always will be Lord.

I have always thought of Him as Lord. I'm not a calvinist either. How ever I don't look at others and Judge them to be saved or not by anything they may do. Christians still sin, we all do.
MB

 

[JonC]

If it's an ice latte, I'll drink the other half.


If that's not a fundamental issue, nothing is!

Fundamental issues in the salvation of a sinner would include understanding and changing one's mind about sin and one's self as a sinner, understanding that Christ died for those sins, and understanding that Christ rose from the dead, thus guaranteeing eternal life to the one who believes.

Neglect of these issues is where easy believism enters.
1. If the witness does not talk about sin, the Holy Spirit will not convict (John 16:8-9, of course), and thus repentance will not take place.
2. If the witness does not tell the prospect that Christ died for his or her sin, then the supposed salvation might depend on a prayer or simply going forward. How many times have we heard of someone inoculated against the Gospel because they "said a prayer"?
3. "And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins" (1 Cor. 15:17). As a missionary, I saw tracts sometimes that left out the resurrection, and thus had an incomplete Gospel. I avoided those. The resurrection is a very important part of the Gospel.

So here is where easy believism comes in: "Jesus died for you and loves you. Just pray this prayer...." (Soul-winner: Oh goody, I can chalk up another one!)

I think we agree....except on iced coffee.

 

[37818]

Easy believism.

 

[John of Japan]

I think we agree....except on iced coffee.

Soon as the BB gets a coffee shop, I'll buy you your favorite!