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What Love is This?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Aug 31, 2023.

  1. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    John uses agapao (G25) to express a different idea than when he uses phieo (G5368). Both are verbs that mean to love another. Philo comes from an adjective (G5384) and has the meaning of loving someone as a friend or family member, i.e. friendship or kinship love. Families share everything, so the nuanced meaning is to be kindly toward another and willing to share with them what you have. So rather than exercising the sloppy eisegesis of claiming there was no intended difference in meaning, let’s let the word usage speak for itself.

    Let's look at a few verses from John where he uses phileo rather than agapao.

    John 5:20, For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing; and the Father will show Him greater works than these, so that you will marvel.

    So the Father "loves with kinship love" the Son and treats Him as family, sharing with Him all that the Father has been doing.

    John 11:3, So the sisters sent word to Him, saying, “Lord, behold, he whom You love with kinship love is sick.

    Here in the view of the sisters, Jesus loved his close associates as members of his family, thus ... he whom You love as family is sick. Now we will learn at the end of the book that Jesus also displayed agapao love by laying down His life for His present and future "family" that includes Lazarus.

    John 11:36, So the Jews were saying, “See how He loved him!

    In the view of those seeing Jesus weep, they understood that Jesus loved Lazarus like a lost brother. And they were right! Too bad the translation does not present the full message of God, i.e. "See how Jesus loved him as family."

    John 12:25, He who loves his life loses it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it to life eternal.

    Contextually, he who is friendly toward his or her life in the world will lose it, but he who hates his life in this world will keep it to life eternal. The idea is not that we should not love ourselves, i.e. love your neighbor as yourself, but friendship with the world makes us enemies of God.

    John 15:19, If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you.

    Same usage of “phileo” referring to a relationship (friendship) between the elect or the world.

    John 16:27, for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me and have believed that I came forth from the Father.

    Here, the Father loves us as His children, because (1) we have loved Jesus as our uniquely divine sibling and (2) we believed that Jesus is the Christ sent from God.

    John 20:2, So she ran and came to Simon Peter and to the other disciple whom Jesus loved, and said to them, “They have taken away the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid Him.”

    Here we have Mary’s perspective, Jesus loved John as a brother, which is not to say Jesus did not also love John to the greatest extent, i.e. He died for John and all mankind.

    John 21:15, So when they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love (agapao) Me more than these?” He said to Him, “Yes, Lord; You know that I love (phileo) You.” He said to him, “Tend My lambs.”

    Here, some mistakenly claim John is using the words interchangeably, but nothing could be further from the truth. Peter loves Jesus as a brother, but is not prepared to die for Jesus. And that distinction is essential to the message of God.

    John 21:16, He said to him again a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you love (agapao) Me?” He said to Him, “Yes, Lord; You know that I love (phileo) You.” He said to him, “Shepherd My sheep.”

    Peter is still not prepared to die for Jesus. And Peter is distraught; because He does not think his all too human love is enough for his Lord and Master.

    And now we come to one of the most powerful and compassionate verses in all scripture, and one which some seek to obscure.

    John 21:17, He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love (phielo) Me?” Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, “Do you love Me?” And he said to Him, “Lord, You know all things; You know that I love (phileo) You.” Jesus *said to him, “Tend My sheep.

    Rather than asking Peter if he loves Jesus with the greatest, willing to die for, love, Jesus asks if Peter loves Jesus as a brother or friend? But note that this human love, imperfect and falling short of our goal, was acceptable to God. Jesus will accept us where we are, warts and all.
     
  2. Piper

    Piper Active Member
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    To John, does agape always mean “the God kind of love” or “perfect unconditional love” every time he uses it? Answer: Nope. If John thinks that’s what the word means, then why does he say that…

    • People loved (agape love) the darkness rather than light in Jn. 3:19.
    • The Pharisees loved (agape love) the approval of men more than the praise of God in Jn. 12:43.
    Let’s Stop Over-Interpreting Agape vs Phileo
     
  3. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Agapeo was used centuries prior to the writing of the NT. It means to love by the will rather than emotions. The other forms of love are tied to the emotions rather than the will. The reason agapeo is tied to God is because it is intended to mean to make a decision to love even when the other is not being loving. Romans 5:8 comes to mind when it says that God showed His love toward us while we were yet sinners. 1 John 4:19 says we love Him because He first loved us. Dr. D.A. Carson says it is a logical fallacy to compare the words such as Agapeo and Philleo and try to deduce some special meaning for one or the other through such a comparison. It actually falls under a "root fallacy".
     
  4. Piper

    Piper Active Member
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    There ya go. I might know you, Rev Mitchell.

    Carson is right, I believe. The switch between the words in John 21 is just stylistic, I think.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Here is how "agopeo" is used in John 3:19:
    With an accusative of the thing ἀγαπάω denotes to take pleasure in the thing, prize it above other things, be unwilling to abandon it or do without it: δικαιοσύνην, Hebrews 1:9 (i. e. steadfastly to cleave to); τήν δόξαν, John 12:43; τήν πρωτοκαθεδρίαν, Luke 11:43; τό σκότος; and τό φῶς, John 3:19; ​

    So the meaning in John 3:19 s not "God kind of love or perfect unconditional love.:
     
  6. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    I love the song, Just as I am, because when I put my trust in Christ for salvation, it was front and center in my mind that I am deeply flawed, weak, and unable not to stumble. Thank God for John 21.
     
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