Featured Are Those Who Die in Infancy Saved?

I would encourage you to read the words as if they are true and makes sense.

In 1 Cor 15:22 the text says all men in the family of Adam die. It does not say what you make it say, which is, in Adam all are dead.

The verse just before this says the following;

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

Just for fun, if you were not reading these verses with a deep abiding bias, what would you think would be the death that is relative to this context? I already know what you are trying to prove, and that is that this passage is speaking of babies who are born into the family headed by Adam and not full grown adults who die eventually because in Adam they do not have eternal life and certainly no power in them to resist sin. In your next verses it will be laid out clearly that it is not being born that causes them to die, but being in Adam's image which all men receive by being born in his image.

Now, Jesus Christ was not born in the image of Adam, he was born in the image of his Father, God. He did have in him from birth the power to resist sin, and he never sinned. Though the body of our Lord Jesus was not mature enough to resist sin as he grew, the Spirit of God who dwelt in him was as mature the day he was born as the day he willingly died on the cross for all those born in Adam, all of whom eventually willingly bowed to the sovereign of this world, sin.

Being in the image of Adam just means that being in the image of God is distinguished by the fact that God indwells the body of those who are in his image while those in the image of Adam are absent the Spirit. It is not a sin to be this way, it is how they are born. Now, the body of Jesus and the soul of Jesus came through his natural birth but the Spirit of God came from the Father, God. This is what it means to be in the image of God, three in one and one in three. Jesus Christ is the only man who has ever been in the image of God to this point in time, his resurrection, except Adam before the fall. The difference between the two is that Adam did not exist before but was created this way and Jesus, was from everlasting, a Spirit (God is a Spirit Jn 6:63) and was physically born as both a man, being God. I am not guessing about this, it is what the scriptures teach. Now, all them who are born again into the family of God, with Jesus as the head of the family, are in the image of God. God is their Father and they are all "sons" of God, viewed by God the Father as completely righteous, because they are "in Christ" and he no longer sees us "in Adam."

Now, you are going to need to see some verses;
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Joh 3:31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.
32 And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.
33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.
34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life (when he believes): and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.


Ro 5:17 For if by one man’s offence (ADAM) death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ)

19 For as by one man’s disobedience many (not babies but them who sinned) were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many (who receive the Spirit) be made righteous.

20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

The law made men more notable sinners.

Now here is the Sovereignty of sin in Adam's race;

Ro 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

He proves this by the fact that all from Adam to Moses died without the law, and all from Moses until Christ came died with the law, but since Christ died and rose again, he imputes his own righteousness to them who will receive it and when they die they will be like him and rise from the dead. He calls this time frame "the grace of God." It is not just grace but "the abundance of grace." It is described thusly;
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men (not babies) to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

There is much more wonderful truths in these passages. I pray you do not approach these plain words with a bias that will darken your mind but allow the words to mean what they say.

 

The reason some of you fellows have such a hard time reasoning out the truth is because you have opted to not have it and to not recognize it and not accept it. Therefore you are like a blind mouse looking for some cheese. That NASB you are quoting tells a flat out lie when it says those who believes in Jesus are not judged, as if the word judged and condemned are one and the same and are equal. The fact that Jesus with these words is making a distinction between those who believe and those who do not is in itself a judgement that only he can make. The scriptures everywhere declares that all men, even saved men, will give account of their deeds at some time, whether they be good or whether they be evil.

One chapter separates what Jesus himself said about judgement and it is not what you quoted above.

Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

He said the above words immediately after he had said these words I quote now;

Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

I have not read your NASB but I would not be surprised if it said in verse 24 that believers in Jesus will not come into judgement. It is not judgement that believers in Jesus are rescued from, but condemnation by their sins.

Here is what John 3:18 really says and means.

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Some capable judge must determine if they have believed by judging them.

Man looketh on the outward appearance, but God looketh on the heart.

 

I agree that through Adam we have both spiritual separation and physical death, we are separated from God and we will all die. But what was not lost was the ability to make real free will choices. We see this in Cain. Genesis 4:7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it." We see that God expected Cain to be able to make a real choice.

So while were separated from God through Adam's sin we can restore that relationship when we choose to trust in Christ Jesus for our salvation.

 

1) First we have off topic fluff addressing me, making false and unsubstanciated claims.
2) Next, rather than addressing the clarity of John 3:19, as to what must be believed, which this poster claimed not to grasp, the subject is changed to a fabricated flaw in the NASB translation of John 3:18.

John 3:18 NASB
“The one who believes in Him is not judged; the one who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.​

Yes, condemned would be a better choice than judged because condemned eliminates the mistaken idea that the saved will not be judged at the Bema seat. But this is a subject for another day, and appears here to change the subject.

 

I was just wondering how an infant could be condemned when the passage you presented clearly states that the cause of the condemnation was for not believing In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Who believed in his name before he was manifest to Israel? Do you think by the record that God is being somewhat time conscious since later he curses this generation of Jews for not believing in him? The name Jesus means, Jehovah is salvation.

I think you have not given the passage much thought. If Jesus came to save them, and he is salvation like his name implies, and receiving him is equal with believing in him and by doing so, being saved,, then the perfect sense of the passage comes to light. All of them in this generation who did not receive him as their promised Messiah were condemned for not believing that. Those of that generation who did receive him were not condemned.

It is that simple. Infants who have not the capacity to reason can not be considered in this conversation.

 

When Adam's sin caused humanity to be "made sinners" every baby conceived was already condemned, not because they had done anything good or bad, but as a consequence of Adam's sin. Note that every baby you think was not condemned died because death spread to all humankind. Full Stop.

I know the naysayers like to attribute thoughts, attitudes and motives to me based on mind reading abilities. There is nothing more I can say....

 

Little children who die as little children are saved because Christ saves them per Mark 10:14-15, ". . . Allow the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein. . . ."

 

Actually the best post in the whole thread. Point the first two lines.

Saved from what?

Mt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.


James 1:15 afterward the desire having conceived, doth give birth to sin, and the sin having been perfected, doth bring forth death.

In the OP it is stated those infants who died. Death is what they have to be saved from. The death that passed to all men through the sin of one man, Adam.

 

A person must possess three things to be a sinner and the same three things to be saved. They are intellect, reason, and will. One cannot become a sinner if he does not possess these things. Do you know of any society in history of charging a child of breaking the law and trying them in court? Do you think men are wiser than God?

Some of the arguments here are completely ridiculous.

Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man (not infant) is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

There is not a sin until there is an action upon the lust.

That seems simple to me. There are three steps to a sin. The lust is his own, not God's.

A man who acts upon his own lust is acting independently of God. That is the definition of sin.

 

Will the false claims never end. Does Mark 10:14-15 say or even suggest little unbelieving children are saved? Nope

Mark 10:14-15
But when Jesus saw this, He was indignant and said to them, “Allow the children to come to Me; do not forbid them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. “Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all.”​

Jesus says we should allow children to come to Him, meaning to seek His salvation. People who trust in Christ as a child would trust in Christ, i.e. without reservation, are those who obtain God's kingdom. Does this say unbelieving children who have not put their trust in Christ are automatically saved? No, of course not, but that was the false claim.

We children "receive the kingdom" the idea is the accept Christ's gospel fully, putting their complete trust in its promises and claims. Again, no mention or suggesting those who have not believed in Jesus are saved.

And so it goes...

 

Here the false claim is God cannot make a cold hard rock a sinner. His God is not all powerful able to do as He pleases. Next, using an abortionist argument claims babies are not persons because they have not yet developed intellect, emotion and will. OTOH, I believe at conception a baby has been made a sinner.

Next the false claim is to be a sinner, one must have the capacity to sin. Again, this flows from a believe God is unable to make babies from conception sinners. Not what I believe scripture teaches.

Can there be forfeiture of fellowship with God from conception due to the consequences of Adam's sin? Romans 5:19

 

So how is one to obey this requirement? ". . . Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein. . . ."

 

Note, no statement as to validly of rebuttal, but only another false claim, this time hidden in the implication of the question.

Here is what was said:

Does Mark 10:14-15 say or even suggest little unbelieving children are saved? Nope

Mark 10:14-15
But when Jesus saw this, He was indignant and said to them, “Allow the children to come to Me; do not forbid them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. “Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all.”
Jesus says we should allow children to come to Him, meaning to seek His salvation. People who trust in Christ as a child would trust in Christ, i.e. without reservation, are those who obtain God's kingdom. Does this say unbelieving children who have not put their trust in Christ are automatically saved? No, of course not, but that was the false claim.

We children "receive the kingdom" the idea is the accept Christ's gospel fully, putting their complete trust in its promises and claims. Again, no mention or suggesting those who have not believed in Jesus are saved.​

How do we obey the requirement to trust God's word, and not reject it when it differs from our presuppositions? Believe like a child, fully and completely, without reservation.

 

Jesus said nothing about "Believe like a child." How about believe like an infant? An infant is without a doubt a little child.

 

Yet another post ignoring what was said, but just going on with yet another false claim.

How do we obey the requirement to trust God's word, and not reject it when it differs from our presuppositions? Believe like a child, fully and completely, without reservation.​

Note, the concept of "receive the kingdom like a child" is claimed not to be to fully trust in Christ without reservation. But no alter view is put forward. Go figure.

Next we get "believe like an infant" unable to grasp the gospel as what Christ was teaching. Nonsense. High grade!

 

So do you or do you not believe Christ died to also save little children too young to understand and believe? Why or why not?

 

All of this nonsense because I challenged your claim from the NASB that God does not judge those who believe. That statement is your authority for your argument. You have not attempted to defend your claim. Here is the verse again;

John 3:18 NASB
“The one who believes in Him is not judged; the one who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

You claim an infant is not judged because he has believed in the name of the only son of God. That is your argument. My question is how can anyone believe in the name of Jesus Christ, the one who is introduced as the only begotten son of God, man or infant, if they did not know this name? No one was required by God to believe in this name before Jesus was manifest to Israel. God's revelation of himself is unfolding through time and his deeds.

Infants are in no need of salvation because they have not sinned. They are not saved already because they do not need to be saved. Thay have done nothing or thought nothing to make them a sinner.

Adam and Eve in the garden are figures of the babes, They were innocent, not perfect, until they were tempted and they exhibited, in the order of my quote from James 1,.

Intellect, reason, and will, and chose to disobey God. You may replace knowledge for reason if you like it better.

Ge 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, (intellect )
and a tree to be desired to make one wise, (reason) she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, (will) and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. The result was devastating. She died some 900 years later just like God said she would.

God did not challenge an infant Cain and an infant Abel, both sons of Adam after his fall. He charged them with a law. Present yourselves to me with a blood sacrifice.

Now you are not believing the truth, that neither of these men were guilty of Adam's sin, a Catholic doctrine called original sin, that is hideous in it's nature. I know they weren't by a plain and simple statement in scripture that few believe. Here it is;

Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Paul is not speaking about sinners in the garden but all men who died a physical death from Adam to Moses, when the written law of God, the 10 commandments, was given. Adam was the only man who had been given the law not to eat of the forbidden tree. No one after him was given that law. Adam was the only man alive at the time. He is the only man ever to be in the garden. No one had the capacity to commit that sin.

So that law of the tree was not given to Adam's offspring and it was not imputed to them. Adam's sin caused the death of all Adam's offspring to this very day, but it alone did not condemn Adam's offspring. Adam's sin introduced sin into God's prefect creation. Sin brings death, not immediately in the physical realm, but eventually. The reason it brough death to the family of Adam was because all his children were born in his fallen image and not in the image he possessed before the fall, which was the image of God.

Sin is not imputed when there is no law!

Why?

Because sin is the transgression of the law.

If Adam would not have succumbed to the temptation, which is three parts, he would have maintain the image that he had been created in, the image of God, and would have produced children in that same image and sin would not have been in the world.

.
Ge 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Adam lost two things with his sin.
1) The image of God
2) the dominion of the earth.

The purpose of Jesus Christ is to restore both by restoring the image of God in a new family and ruling and reigning over the earth as King of kings and Lord of lords.

2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty (from the written on stone ten commandments in context).

2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature (in this new family and kingdom):



45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

The life of the family of Adam is the blood that courses through the veins. The life of the family of God is the Spirit who indwells the body permanently and is it's life.

If one will follow the logic he will see that infants are not condemned by being born but they have no power against sin and will transgress God's law when tempted and will die.

I am giving you a reasonable biblical argument why infants are not sinners and are not condemned as such.

 

@JD731

for till law sin was in the world: and sin is not reckoned when there is not law; but the death did reign from Adam till Moses, even upon those not having sinned in the likeness of Adam's transgression, who is a type of him who is coming.

Would you agree that infants are as those above?

They are not sinners nor condemned yet they die in Adam therefore must be saved, by the blood of Jesus, out of the death?

From Gal 3:22 but the Writing did shut up the whole under sin, ---- Under the sin of Adam that brought death to all.

 

I've already stated my position on the topic of an infant's eternal destination; that being the Scriptures are silent and we can trust the character of God to do what is right and just.

A friend of mine, when he teaches from the OT, notes that the OT frequently deals with legal issues between man and God. The text in the Gospel of John deals with such legal issues as well.

That being said, there are a few points that have come up that need correcting.

Here is the verse from the NASB95
“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Jn 5:18

John 5 18-30 (AV 1873)

18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

ο πιστευων εις αυτον ου κρινεται ο δε μη πιστευων ηδη κεκριται οτι μη πεπιστευκεν εις το ονομα του μονογενους υιου του θεου
Stephen’s 1550 Textus Receptus, Jn 5:18​

19Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
20For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
21For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

ουδε γαρ ο πατηρ κρινει ουδενα αλλα την κρισιν πασαν δεδωκεν τω υιω
Stephen’s 1550 Textus Receptus, NA28, Jn 5:22.​

23that all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

αμην αμην λεγω υμιν οτι ο τον λογον μου ακουων και πιστευων τω πεμψαντι με εχει ζωην αιωνιον και εις κρισιν ουκ ερχεται αλλα μεταβεβηκεν εκ του θανατου εις την ζωην
Stephen’s 1550 Textus Receptus, NA28, Jn 5:24.​

25Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27and hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

και εξουσιαν εδωκεν αυτω και κρισιν ποιειν οτι υιος ανθρωπου εστιν
Stephen’s 1550 Textus Receptus, Jn 5:27.​

28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

και εκπορευσονται οι τα αγαθα ποιησαντες εις αναστασιν ζωης οι δε τα φαυλα πραξαντες εις αναστασιν κρισεως
Stephen’s 1550 Textus Receptus, NA28, Jn 5:29.​

30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

ου δυναμαι εγω ποιειν απ εμαυτου ουδεν καθως ακουω κρινω και η κρισις η εμη δικαια εστιν οτι ου ζητω το θελημα το εμον αλλα το θελημα του πεμψαντος με πατρος
1550 Textus Receptus, Jn 5:30.​

It turns out that JUDGMENT and CONDEMNATION are one and the same and are equal, being derived from the same Greek word.

The argument is quite tangential to the question of infant salvation but the passage makes it clear that the judgement is for unbelief, the believer has already passed that hurdle.

The promise becomes immediately effective; the hearer-believer has eternal life now. He has the judgment behind him, not before him, since judgment is for unbelief (3:18, 36), and he has crossed over from the realm of death into the sphere of the divine sovereignty, the characteristic of which is life for all who enter it (cf. Col 1:13). This is the strongest affirmation of realized eschatology applied to the believer in the NT, as 12:31–32 is the strongest expression of its cosmic aspect.
George R. Beasley-Murray, John, vol. 36, Word Biblical Commentary (Dallas: Word, Incorporated, 1999), 76.​

Rob

 

I found the OT largely (but not 100%) silent on the afterlife. Within this broader general context, David was saying nothing more profound than “while his son was alive but dying, David wept to God because God could yet save the life of his baby. Now that the baby is dead, the baby will not rise from the grave (so there is no need to plead to God any longer), but David will with certainty one day also join his baby in the grave.”

Like most of the OT, David was saying nothing about the afterlife but was focused on this life ending in death (the grave).