Featured All Things Work Together?

@Salty

The Old Baptists call it ‘overruling providence’.

 

I see no conflict with God having authority over all His creation and working both the evil and the good to His perfect will.

As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.
(Genesis 50:20)

But he said to her, “You speak as one of the foolish women would speak. Shall we receive good from God, and shall we not receive evil?”
(Job 2:10)

For behold, I am raising up the Chaldeans, that bitter and hasty nation, who march through the breadth of the earth, to seize dwellings not their own.
(Habakkuk 1:6)

How does God become the author of sin just because God has full authority over all His creation? That seems like a leap of irrational thought to me.

 

Is God sovereign,YES.
Does He have total authority, YES.
Does that require that He decree from all eternity freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass. NO

God has not determined all that happens down to the movement of a molecule as Calvinists would have it as that would logically make Him the author of evil and be responsible for all sin.

Because God is sovereign He can and does use the free will actions of man to work out His plan for His creation.

 

Doesn't your last sentence simply state that God determines the results of a humans choice so that the choice results exactly as God wills?

How else could God be Sovereign?

 

Hehe

 

So if God determines the result of human choices then He becomes the one responsible for those human choices. So your view actually makes God the only chooser thus He then becomes responsible for all the sin and evil in the world. God under Calvinistic determinism would be the ultimate cause of all the evil that happens.

But sovereign does not equal meticulous control. God in His sovereignty has given man a free will so the choices that man makes are His responsibility. Does that mean that God can not use mans choices for His ends, NO.

God has a plan for His creation and we see this being worked out from Gen 1:1 through Rev 22:21. Before the foundation of the world, God, in Christ, chose to glorify Himself by saving believers out of fallen mankind.

 

How is "having a plan" and "determined" differ?

Earlier you wrote: " Because God is sovereign He can and does use the free will actions of man to work out His plan for His creation."

I wrote: " Doesn't your last sentence simply state that God determines the results of a humans choice so that the choice results exactly as God wills?
How else could God be Sovereign?"

You didn't answer my question with your response. You simply accused me of having a view that makes God the cause of all sins and evil in the world.

I am coming to understand that you don't have a very good grasp on theology, but you certainly are prejudiced.

 

Is there someone at the Baptist Board who has said "God makes all sin into something beautiful"?

 

Yes, I explained your error, Van.
Nowhere in any verse do we read "being chosen through or by way of faith in the truth."
That is purely your own personal theology that no other Christian in all of the history of Christianity teaches or has taught. To this date, you have produced no reference from any theologian. It has been your idea and yours alone. You are welcomed to have your idea. No one else, to this date, will join you.

 

You seem to think that God being sovereign requires that He control all things that happen down to the molecule moving. That is divine determinism AKA Calvinism. So if God controls all that happens as per Calvinism then you have indeed made Him the author of all sin and evil. That is the logical outcome of your philosophy.

God has a plan but that does not require that He control all that happens that is just a Calvinist idea. Using what man freely does is not God causing man to do something.

If God wills/decrees something then it is not man doing something by his free will is it?

You asked "How else could God be Sovereign?" God is sovereign because He is God. You seem to be under the impression that God has to determine everything that happens or else He is not sovereign. What do you base that idea on, the WCF or LBCF?
He does not have to control all that happens in order to be sovereign, Man having a free will does not lessen God's sovereignty, how could it?

Calvinist have imported the idea that God has to control all things if He is going to be sovereign. But then you balk at the logical conclusion of your assertion when you are told that your idea would make God the cause of all sin and evil. Calvinists want to have their cake and eat it to.

I do have a good grasp of theology but you seem to think that one has to hold to Calvinism. But the bible is the standard not your man-made theology. But you are right in one respect, I am prejudiced against any false theology that wants to tear down the character of God. The bible tells us we are saved by grace through faith in the risen Son. Calvinism says one is saved by election before the foundation of the world and faith has nothing to do with it as you have to be given faith after you are saved.

Biblical salvation and Calvinist salvation are not the same. One is true and one is not.

God has a determined plan for salvation, faith in the risen Christ. Those that believe in Him will be saved. He has not determined who will or who will not believe although He does know who will and who will not, He is God after all.

I have suggested that you check out the foundations of your theology but I would guess that you have not done that.

@taisto if you do not like what I say about your Calvinist theology then show me where I am wrong. Show me where all those scholars were wrong about Augustine and where he got his ideas of divine determinism, predetermined elect, inability to respond to the gospel message, no freewill.

I do not dislike Calvinists but I do not like Calvinism because of what it has done to the truth of God's word.

 

All I wrote was: Doesn't your last sentence simply state that God determines the results of a humans choice so that the choice results exactly as God wills?
How else could God be Sovereign?"

You tell me that I must believe that God controls every molecule of His creation.

Let me ask this: Is God aware of every molecule, every aspect of His creation and what is going on?

If He isn't aware and paying attention to it, how would He be Sovereign over it?

First, not once have I ever mentioned Calvinism. You, honestly, go to Calvin whenever you are questioned and you hammer an imaginary argument. Go back and look at who is talking about Calvinism in our conversation.

Did God move the heart of Nebuchadnezzar to attack Judah as God tells Habakkuk in Habbakuk 1? Is God, therefore, by your assertion, the author of sin in determining that the Babylonians would purge Judah? Is every prophetic fulfillment of judgment in the Bible a visible point of contention with you whereby you state that God is the author of sin?

I do not follow you logic that God, directing the affairs of history, makes God the author of sin.

What does man do, freely, that God does not give him the capacity to do? When you breathe, is that you freely doing so, or is that God's will being enacted by willfully causing you to breathe? In Job 14:5, the Bible says that God determines exactly how long you will live. He created you and sustains you. You are a sinner. Does that make God the author of sin, since you are here by God's creative decree?

See my comments above. God decreed you into existence. It must not have been your free will that caused you to live, according to your own declaration.

Do you see the circular argument here? You have done nothing here to define Sovereignty. You gave us nothing at all in these two sentences.

I have no idea what WCF or LBCF is referring to so I guess that cannot be what I base my faith upon. Let's go with something much more important. Let's go with the B-I-B-L-E.

God gives us prophecy after prophecy in the Bible. Does that make God dependent upon free will for those prophecies to come true?

When Jonah exerted his free will to flee to Tarshish, was God supposed to stay silent and let Jonah go? When Saul/Paul exerted his free will to go to Damascus and persecute Christians, was God supposed to stay silent and let Saul/Paul go his way?

If God is not King over all His creation that necessitates that not all of creation is under His rule and authority. Those areas that are free of God's rule would not be under God's sovereign rule.

Why do you single out "Calvinists?" Since you make this declaration, please provide documentation of John Calvin making this statement or one of his disciples making this statement. You seem to think you know the teachings of Calvin extremely well so this should not be a problem for you.

Or, are you just falling on your imagination and prejudice?

Where am I balking?
I am asking you to show the logic of your declaration.
You are saying that God is the cause of all sins and all evil, if God determines your path and the path of all humanity.
I have asked if all prophecy from God is sinful and evil since God has predetermined that it happen?

So far, you haven't shown a good grasp of theology in your comments. So far you have made very general accusations and you have made wild swings at imaginary phantoms of your own design. That's not theology. That's your own imagination.

The Bible is the standard.

What "man-made" theology have I presented? You are the one who keeps veering away from the Bible instead of holding to what it says. Would you consider your theology to be "man-made?"

How would you discern false theology from true theology? You have told us that if God doesn't leave you alone to do whatever you want to do, then God is the author of the evil and sin you do.

Can you see how that declaration might tear at the character of God?

Indeed, God saves us by grace alone.
The faith he gives us is the means through which we believe He has truly saved us.

That is what the Bible says.

I don't know what Calvin said on the matter. Can you quote him please?
The Bible says we were adopted before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1). However the Bible seems to present salvation as being progressive and continuing until we are in heaven, with that salvation being sustained by the intercessory prayer of Jesus as our High Priest.

If, as the Bible says, we are saved by God's grace, then God saves us and that means we don't.

The Bible says that people don't naturally have faith. In Romans 10:17 we read "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing comes through the word of Christ."

This tells us that if Christ does not speak the words of life into you and you hear his voice, you will not have faith.
That is consistent with Ephesians 2:1-9 which tells us that "even when we were dead, God made us alive, by grace you have been saved."

I only know of salvation by Christ's grace alone. I have never heard of Calvin saving anyone. Where does Calvin say he can save you?

Amen.

Amen. In Romans 10:17 we read "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing comes through the word of Christ."

Above, you wrote this:
"God has a determined plan for salvation, faith in the risen Christ."

You seem to be contradicting yourself.

Your guess is just that. You are flailing away in the dark and you have shown it in your posting.

Again, I have never read anything by John Calvin, except a meme quote.
You have not even quoted a meme from John Calvin, let alone his systematic theology. How can I show anything when you have said nothing?

What scholars? Are you referring to some book you hold by a modern writer who made a claim about Augustine and now you hold that man's writing as equal to the Bible? I don't know what you are referring to here.

Do you actually know what Calvinism is, or do you have a caricature you have drawn in your mind that you call Calvinism? So far, you have never, to my short time here, ever quoted John Calvin. How am I, or anyone here for that matter, supposed to hold your statements as valid when you don't even quote John Calvin in any post you ever make?
As I stated in another post, I do not think you understand theology even at the most rudimentary level.
You are, however, extremely prejudiced against the caricatures you have created in your mind.

May God be with you.

 

Yes God did move his heart just as He did Pharaoh's and Jonah's and Paul's and Moses. They all acted by their free will did the not? Was God still sovereign, YES. The bible does not make God the author of sin the divine determinism of Calvinism does that. Calvinism requires that God control/determine all things and then balk when the logical end of that view is pointed out to them.

So God controls/causes us to breathe but we can overrule Him and sin without Him controlling it. Does God cause man to sin or does man have a God given free will so that he can choose to sin or not to sin?

God is sovereign because He is God. Is that a concept that is hard for you to understand? Contrary to Calvinism sovereignty does not require that He control the movement of molecules or men. God in His sovereignty has given man a free will. Why is that so hard for you to grasp?

As for prophecy, you do know that God is omniscient right? Since He knows all things He can and actually does know what man will freely do. Can He cause man to do certain things of course, He’s God. Does He have to cause all things, NO.

Sovereign means God has all rule and authority, sovereign does not means absolute divine determinism, that is a Calvinist idea brought in by Augustine from Neoplatonism. I have to ask, where do you get this idea that the only way God can be sovereign is if He controls all things that happen?

So we have Jonah and Paul exerting their free will but then you ask was God supposed to stay silent and do nothing? Why? Have I said that God has to stand back and do nothing, NO Have I said that He can and sometimes does use men to accomplish His task, YES He will sometimes even step in Himself as with Paul and Moses.

I have provided the information for you and told you that the pagan ideas were imported by Augustine and carried forward by Calvin and others. I have told you where you can find the information but you are reluctant to look it up. Go and read Augustine own words or read what many scholars have said about the source of his theology. Get the book by Dr. Ken Wilson. This book provides an abbreviated and simplified access to his doctoral thesis at the University of Oxford. As he said it is “For those persons who are not afraid to allow truth to triumph over tradition”

I am sure you know of creation, the gospel message, the Holy Spirit convicting people. A false theology would be one that requires that God determine/decrees all that happens, no free will that we are saved before one even believes. That is a pagan philosophy..

No @taisto I did not say "if God doesn't leave you alone to do whatever you want to do, then God is the author of the evil and sin you do." I said that if, as Calvinism posits, God has to control all things if He is to be considered sovereign then that would have to include sin which would make Him the author of sin.

Why do you find it necessary to misquote/twist my words?

Those that hear and believe the gospel message will be saved. You want us to believe that man has to be saved before they can believe, that is a non-biblical idea.

{Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes,

Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

 

What I take from this is that you have no source documents for your continual railing on the imaginary Calvinism you have created in your mind. Therefore any comments on that category will be brushed off as entirely irrelevant and ultimately a figment of your imagination.

As to your understanding of Sovereignty and free will, you are all over the place. You claim that God is Sovereign, the King over all His Creation, yet you say that man is entirely free to do anything he wills. Such a claim is inherently contradictory.

You continue your mantra that without man being able to do anything he wants, the alternative is God causing them to sin because God has determined their steps.
Yet, you ignore the passages in the Bible where God raised up wicked men to do His will.
How is it that you accuse God unless God gives you freedom to do anything you want? Your argument comes across as one who stands above the creator in accusation unless the creator allows you free will.

Could it possibly be that God gives you leeway to act, within His determined will for your life so that you make decisions that have no effect on His will and thus are entirely to blame for your sins?

So, all things do work together for good because God works your plans into His plans without blinking.

 

So you are just proving that you are afraid to check out the foundation of your philosophy.

Here is quote from Dr Wilson's book
"Augustine is so wholly within me that I could write my entire theology out of his writings" John Calvin
The basis for Calvin's theology was Augustine and the basis for Augustine's theology was pagan philosophy. So the root of bad and thus the tree is bad, Calvinism is based on pagan philosophy.

Your continued denial of the truth is saddening. It is obvious that you do not want truth but rather just someone to bolster your errant view.

Dr Wilson read all of Augustine's writings and quoted over 150 scholars and yet you say I have provided you with no avenue where you can find the truth. You are exhibiting a closed mind, your mantra must be "don't confuse me with facts"

You continue to misrepresent what I say but that seems to be a common Calvinist trait. You twist and abuse scripture so why should I expect any better for you.

I do hope and pray that God in His mercy will open your eyes to the truth of His word.