Featured Penal Substitution Hypothetical question

No.

Salvation and forgiveness of sins comes after God Holy Spirit regenerates the elect and they respond with faith in Jesus Christ, Who He is and what He did.

What He did….. was suffer in our place. He was tortured, whipped, mocked, spit upon, nailed naked on a cross….. He suffered in our place. By His strips you are healed. That is substitution, without question.

And that suffering led to His death. That death led to God demonstrate His power by resurrecting that tortured body and transforming it into a glorified body. Paul tells us these truths are of first importance. If no resurrection, we are still in our sins.

PSA is clearly taught in scripture. It occur on the cross and is applied at the great throne judgment when Jesus cloths us in His righteousness before God the Father.

Until then God has given to us indwelling God Holy Spirit as a pledge, the promise, that what Jesus has taught about the Kingdom of God and salvation by faith in Christ is true.

Scripture uses past, present, and future tenses when speaking of salvation of believers. They “are saved”, they are “being saved”, and they “will be saved”.

An account of my faith has been given. Your question has been answered directly.

peace to you

 

I already answered your “simple” question. Christ punishment was to suffer until He died.

Your question is nonsensical. It is akin to asking if God can create a rock so big He is unable to lift it.

I’ll focus on what scripture actually teaches, which is PSA. You focus on your hypotheticals and “gotcha” questions.

good night

peace to you

 

No, according to your reasoning here anything short of instant paradise would mean a partial atonement. This is a common flaw in Bible study - that you cannot look at an additional scripture without setting up a supposed contradiction in your mind. We do it all the time.
The simple fact is that when you have Godly men with a complete and accurate scriptural record sit down and have time to really look into the Word you will come up with a penal substitutionary atonement.

 

I have answered your question. You obviously are not getting the answer you think I should give.

God set the plan in place. It included Christ suffering which led to His death. Why was His suffering not enough to make atonement? I never said it wasn’t enough. I’m saying His death was part of God’s plan and cannot be separated from His suffering which is what you are doing in your hypothetical. You are asking what His death accomplished in addition to atonement?

Just off hand, His death led to His resurrection. His resurrection was a demonstration.of God’s power over death. It provides proof that what Christ taught is true. It provides hope to the elect they will share in His resurrection even as we share in His suffering.

I am not surprised you do not understand PSA. Many do not understand their own beliefs. The good news is, understanding PSA is not a requirement for a right relationship with God, though I believe it deepens your relationship with our Lord to understand He suffered and died for us (which is what scripture teaches.)

Peace to you

 

Well Jon I've been watching this discussion but didn't join in until now, so I'm not on the list, so I'm join to answer your question... Then suppose rather than dying Christ ascended directly to the right hand of the Father... Well Jon first of all that would never happen and if it did... You would be free from your sins but still stuck in the grave because you're going no where... Not only that the whole counsel of God would be a mockery and Heaven would still be filled with the three and one Godhead and the angels and any saved race from Adam wouldn't be there!

Thank God it didn't but the Son Of God died and was buried in the tomb and because he said "it is finished" he was raised from the tomb the 3rd day and just like him we shall also be raised... He took the full wrath of his Father God that we deserved... Anyone that tells me any different can go fly a kite... I go by scripture, and haven't change my belief in the over the many years I've been here... If Christ is not my substitution and didn't stand and do what I could not and appease his Father, then I'm going somewhere and I deserve it but its not where I want to go!... Praise God!... Brother Glen

 

Agree, as are many other concepts.

[add]

This hasn’t changed:

8 He hath showed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth Jehovah require of thee, but to do justly, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with thy God? Micah 6

34 And Peter opened his mouth and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 but in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is acceptable to him. Acts 10

 

Just to be clear, I reject they notion that Jesus did not have to die for our sins. That was always God’s plan and scripture specifically states Jesus died for our sins, so it was necessary.

I may disagree with some on whether death is part of the “punishment” of God for sin, or rather the consequence of sin. I hold the latter, but I am certainly willing to hear arguments to the contrary.

That is why I started another thread to address that question.

peace to you

 

Can you cite anyone who has ever used this besides you? I really don't understand your hangup with this.

It is appointed unto man once to die and after that, judgement. Not that "It's a natural course of events unrelated to the fall, that all will die". Whether you like it or not it is scriptural. But look. Without God's mercy we would consider ourselves lucky if He just killed us and stopped our wretched, sinful existence. Instead, we are told we will suffer physical death and then be judged and separated consciously from God for all eternity. We are also told that our natural condition is spiritual death which is far worse than the physical prospect of death. But God provided a way out of this for us and we can have spiritual renewal, fellowship with God that starts as soon as we believe, and the promise of eternal life with God. But we are not told that we will avoid physical death and you have no right to make that part of the determinate criteria as to whether this redemption is sufficient.

You are on some kind of mission with this hypothetical thread where you are trying to do something with the terminology of "death" in God's pronouncement of judgment at the fall of man and link it somehow with an imagined deficiency in penal substitution. No one else is doing this, no one follows you. It does not make any sense.

Go ahead and do that and then I will provide where you can look in scripture and also in Owen's work to match what I have said. Maybe that will help you.

 

You certainly don't have to understand it to be saved. But for a person who has an extensive understanding - to reject it and consider it stupid I think they would be in trouble. Owen did, as well as most preachers who go into discussion of the atonement. There is a huge difference between an early church father who is worried about other issues like defending the Trinity or even just the divinity of Christ and who never wrote anything on the atonement and someone who now with a complete and accurate translation of scripture deliberately opposes it with full knowledge and will.

 

1 Corinthians 15:17, ". . . And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. . . ." would not be the case. So instead of the resurrection, it would be the trasfiguration to immortality and ascension of Christ in it's place.

 

How? The received payment is still in full per and before John 19:28, ". . . Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, . . ." τετελεσται tetelestai.