1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured John 3:16 interpetative translation

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Sep 9, 2023.

  1. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,310
    Likes Received:
    1,109
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Baptists are split on the specifics of John 3:16. When I was young, and the "Bible" was the KJV, we memorized the verse this way: For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, so that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.

    1) The first issue is that some thought the verse was saying how much God loved. Now scholars translate the verse to indicate the idea is how or in what manner God loved.

    2) Next, the translation of Kosmos (G2889) as world is ambiguous. The Greek word refers to an interrelated system, such as a planet or a society. Contextually, in this verse "kosmos" refers to fallen humanity.

    3) Next the idea of "give" certainly indicates to provide or make available for use. Looking a little deeper the idea is that the gift would provide a blessing (shall not perish).

    4) "Only begotten" is a mistranslation of "monogenes" and should be translated "one of a kind," unique" or "uniquely divine." Jesus is not God's only Son, as Adam was also the son of God, and every born anew believer is also a child of God. However Jesus was one of a kind, uniquely divine, God incarnate.

    5) "Whosoever believes" refers to an undetermined segment of fallen humanity, not a preselected segment.

    6) In Him refers to those who spiritually enter into Christ's spiritual body, as the preposition translated "in" means "into." Since humanity is not able to change their spiritual location (going from the realm of darkness into the marvelous light of God's kingdom) "into" refers to God crediting the person's faith as "righteous faith" and on that basis transferring the person into Christ.

    7) Once placed within Christ, the person is made (eternally) alive together with Christ.

    When these observations are addressed, the resulting interpretive translation reads:

    God loved humanity in this way, He gave is uniquely divine Son so that everyone believing into Him will not perish but have eternal life.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,310
    Likes Received:
    1,109
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Lets consider how before or since the foundation of the world might be translated in its other usages:

    1) The meaning in John 3:16 is fallen humanity because they, without the gift, are going to perish.
    2) Romans 1:20 reads "from the creation" God's invisible attributes have been made known. Thus world refers to humanity as their existence starts the process of being made known.
    3) God had chosen Logos to be His "Lamb of God" before humanity was created for certain, and more probably before He initiated creation of our physical universe.
    4) Since the foundation of the world more accurately refers to since the fall and "down-casting" of humanity.

    a. In Matthew 13:35, humanity is in view as the things were hidden from humanity.
    b. In Matthew 25:34, down-casting (Fall) of humanity is in view.
    c. In Luke 11:50 we see the period in view is after the fall of humanity and lasts to the end of the age, because sinful activity is in view.
    d. John 17:24 refers to before the creation of humanity and more probably before creation of the universe.
    e. In Ephesians 1:4 the action of choosing "us" corporately occurs before the creation of humanity and more probably before our universe.
    f. Hegbrews 4:3, refers to after God's creation of humanity completed on the sixth day.
    g. Hebrews 9:26 refers to the downfall of humanity as that started His need to suffer for sin.
    h. 1 Peter 1:20 - see #2 above.
    i. Revelation 13:8 and Revelation 17:8 both refer to names not written in the Lamb's book of life since the down-fall of humanity.​
     
    • Prayers Prayers x 1
  3. Johann!@#

    Johann!@# Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2023
    Messages:
    36
    Likes Received:
    10
    Faith:
    Baptist
    3:16 "God so loved" This is an AORIST ACTIVE INDICATIVE (as is the VERB "gave"), which here, speaks of a completed act in the past time (God sent Jesus). John 3:16-17 deals primarily with the Father's love (cf. 1 John 4:7-21, esp. John 3:9-10). "Loved" is the term agapaō. It was not used much in Classical Greek. The early church took it and filled it with specific meaning. In certain contexts it relates to the Father's or Son's love, however, it is used negatively of human love (cf. John 3:19; 12:43; 1 John 2:15). It is theologically synonymous with hesed in the OT (see Special Topic: Lovingkindness (hesed), which meant God's covenant loyalty and love. In Koine Greek of John's day, the terms agapaō and phileō are basically synonymous (compare John 3:35 with 5:20).

    Interpreters must keep in mind that all words used to describe God carry human (anthropomorphic) baggage. We must use words that describe our world, our feelings, our historical perspective in an attempt to describe an eternal, holy, unique, spiritual Being (God). All human vocabulary is to some extent analogous or metaphorical. What has been revealed is surely true, but not ultimate. Fallen, temporal, finite mankind cannot grasp ultimate reality.

    Special Topic: God Described As Human (anthropomorphism))

    "so" This is literally "in such a manner" (i.e., John 7:46; 11:48; 18:22). It expresses method, not emotion! God demonstrated His love (cf. Rom. 5:8) by giving (John 3:16) and sending (John 3:17, both are AORIST ACTIVE INDICATIVE) His Son to die on mankind's behalf (cf. Isaiah 53; Rom. 3:25; 2 Cor. 5:21; 1 John 2:2).

    "world" John used this Greek term kosmos in several senses (see note at John 1:10).

    This verse also refuted the Gnostic dualism between spirit (God) and matter. The Greeks tended to attribute evil to matter. For them matter (i.e., human body) was the prison house of the divine spark in all humans. John does not assume the evil of matter or flesh. God loves the world (planet, cf. Rom. 8:18-22) and human beings (flesh, cf. Rom. 8:23). This may be another intentional ambiguity (double entendre) so common in John (cf. John 1:5; 3:3,8).

    Special Topic:Kosmos

    "only begotten Son" This means "unique, one of a kind." It should not be understood as "only begotten" in (1) a sexual sense or (2) the sense that there are no other children. There are just no other children like Jesus. See fuller note at John 1:14.

    Special Topic: Son of God

    "whoever believes in Him" This is a PRESENT ACTIVE PARTICIPLE, which emphasizes initial and continuing belief. This affirmation is repeated from John 3:15 for emphasis. Thank God for the "whosoever"! This must balance any overemphasis on a special group (racial, intellectual, or theological). It is not that "God's sovereignty" and "human freewill" are mutually exclusive; they are both true! God always initiates the response and sets the agenda (cf. Jn. 6:44,65), but He has structured His relationship with humans by means of covenant. They must respond and continue to respond to His offer and conditions!

    Special Topic: Faith, Believe, Trust

    Special Topic: He Chose Us

    Special Topic: Election/Predestination and the Need for a Theological Balance

    "shall not perish" The implication is that some will perish (AORIST MIDDLE SUBJUNCTIVE). Their perishing (amollumi, AORIST MIDDLE SUBJUNCTIVE; see Special Topic: Destruction) is directly related to their lack of a faith response to Jesus (cf. John 11:25). God does not cause, direct, or will their unbelief (cf. Ezek. 18:23,32; 1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet. 3:9).

    Many have attempted to take this term literally and thereby suggest an annihilation of the wicked. This would contradict Dan. 12:2 and Matt. 25:46. This is a good example of sincere believers forcing the Eastern highly figurative literature into a Western interpretive format (literal and logical). For a good discussion of this term see Robert B. Girdlestone's Synonyms of the Old Testament, pp. 275-277.

    Again, note how John thinks and writes in dualistic categories (i.e., perish vs. eternal life). The vocabulary and theological structuring of Jesus' teachings are very different between the Synoptic Gospels and John. One wonders how much freedom (under divine guidance, i.e., inspiration) the Gospel writers had in preparing their evangelistic presentation of Jesus to their selected audiences. See Gordon Fee and Douglas Stuart, How To Read The Bible For All Its Worth, pp. 127-148.
    Bible Lessons International
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  4. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,310
    Likes Received:
    1,109
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Thanks for the on topic insight gleamed apparently from the linked study aid.

    1) I agree the NT uses agapao at times for its meaning which is the same as the Hebrew word "Hesed." This meaning refers to unconditional and unwavering love for another, which is steadfast, loyal and intense.

    2) Phileo and agapao are not "basically synonymous." Agapao is used of God's love for the lost, and Phileo is used of God's love for the saved. In John 3:35 agapao love is presented as unconditionally trusting His Son, whereas in John 5:20 Phileo love is presented as a father teaching his child. Very different.

    3) Beware of "anthropomorphic baggage." Often this claim is used to nullify an attribute or attitude of God. We are to fully trust in God's revealed word, rather than question our understanding because we know we see through a glass darkly.

    4) Agreed, John 3:16 is relating the manner God demonstrated His agapao love for humanity.

    5) In the NT, the Greek word translated "world" is used in more than one sense, but in John 3:16 the use is referring to humanity.

    6) God does not love the planet. In Romans 8:18-22, the "creation" refers to humanity too. God will destroy the planet.

    7) Romans 8:23 refers to "saved humanity" which also eagerly awaits our bodily redemption. This verse does not demonstrate God's love for fleshly desire from mortal flesh.

    8) Yes, several commentaries assert John uses double meanings for the purpose of ambiguity, but since he wrote so that we may believe, I very much doubt "ambiguity" was his intent.

    9) We agree, the meaning in "one of a kind" or unique or uniquely divine as Jesus is God.

    10) We agree, everyone believing is an open offer to all humanity, rather than a supposed subset already chosen.

    11) We agree, God wants all people to be saved, and therefore only selectively removes our innate capacity to believe by heart hardening, such as Romans 11.

    12) We agree, the wicked are not immediately annihilated upon physical death, as they will suffer in Hades and Gehenna.
     
    #4 Van, Sep 11, 2023
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2023
  5. Johann!@#

    Johann!@# Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2023
    Messages:
    36
    Likes Received:
    10
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Here is a classic example of "basically synonymous."


    Joh 21:15 Jesus and Peter
    WhenG3753 Adv Hote Ὅτε thereforeG3767 Conj oun οὖν they had dined,G709 G5656 V-AIA-3P ēristēsan, ἠρίστησαν, saysG3004 G5719 V-PIA-3S legei λέγει -G3588 Art-DMS tō τῷ to SimonG4613 N-DMS Simōni Σίμωνι PeterG4074 N-DMS Petrō Πέτρῳ -G3588 Art-NMS ho ὁ Jesus,G2424 N-NMS Iēsous, Ἰησοῦς, SimonG4613 N-VMS Simōn Σίμων [son] of John,G2491 N-GMS Iōannou, Ἰωάννου, love youG25 G5719 V-PIA-2S agapas ἀγαπᾷς MeG1473 PPro-A1S me με moreG4119 Adj-ANS-C pleon πλέον than these?G3778 DPro-GMP toutōn; τούτων; He saysG3004 G5719 V-PIA-3S Legei Λέγει to Him,G846 PPro-DM3S autō, αὐτῷ, Yes,G3483 Prtcl Nai, Ναί, Lord;G2962 N-VMS Kyrie· Κύριε· YouG4771 PPro-N2S sy σὺ knowG1492 G5758 V-RIA-2S oidas οἶδας thatG3754 Conj hoti ὅτι I dearly loveG5368
    G5719 V-PIA-1S philō φιλῶ You.G4771 PPro-A2S se. σε. He saysG3004 G5719 V-PIA-3S Legei Λέγει to him,G846 PPro-DM3S autō, αὐτῷ, FeedG1006 G5720 V-PMA-2S Boske Βόσκε theG3588 Art-ANP ta τὰ lambsG721 N-ANP arnia ἀρνία of Me.G1473 PPro-G1S mou. μου.
    Joh 21:16 He saysG3004 G5719 V-PIA-3S Legei Λέγει to himG846 PPro-DM3S autō αὐτῷ againG3825 Adv palin πάλιν a second time,G1208 Adv deuteron, δεύτερον, SimonG4613 N-VMS Simōn Σίμων [son] of John,G2491 N-GMS Iōannou, Ἰωάννου, love youG25 G5719 V-PIA-2S agapas ἀγαπᾷς Me?G1473 PPro-A1S me; με; He saysG3004 G5719 V-PIA-3S Legei Λέγει to Him,G846 PPro-DM3S autō, αὐτῷ, Yes,G3483 Prtcl Nai, Ναί, Lord;G2962 N-VMS Kyrie· Κύριε· YouG4771 PPro-N2S sy σὺ knowG1492 G5758 V-RIA-2S oidas οἶδας thatG3754 Conj hoti ὅτι I dearly loveG5368 G5719 V-PIA-1S philō φιλῶ You.G4771 PPro-A2S se. σε. He saysG3004 G5719 V-PIA-3S Legei Λέγει to him,G846 PPro-DM3S autō, αὐτῷ, ShepherdG4165 G5720 V-PMA-2S Poimaine Ποίμαινε theG3588 Art-ANP ta τὰ sheepG4263 N-ANP probata πρόβατά of Me.G1473 PPro-G1S mou. μου.


    Joh 21:16 λεγει αυτω παλιν δευτερον σιμων ιωνα αγαπας με λεγει αυτω ναι κυριε συ οιδας οτι φιλω σε λεγει αυτω ποιμαινε τα προβατα μου
    Joh 21:17 λεγει αυτω το τριτον σιμων ιωνα φιλεις με ελυπηθη ο πετρος οτι ειπεν αυτω το τριτον φιλεις με και ειπεν αυτω κυριε συ παντα οιδας συ γινωσκεις οτι φιλω σε λεγει αυτω ο ιησους βοσκε τα προβατα μου
    Joh 21:18 αμην αμην λεγω σοι οτε ης νεωτερος εζωννυες σεαυτον και περιεπατεις οπου ηθελες οταν δε γηρασης εκτενεις τας χειρας σου και αλλος σε ζωσει και οισει οπου ου θελεις
    Joh 21:19 τουτο δε ειπεν σημαινων ποιω θανατω δοξασει τον θεον και τουτο ειπων λεγει αυτω ακολουθει μοι

    Phileo and Agape "basically" synonymous-glad we agree on many things brother.
     
  6. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,310
    Likes Received:
    1,109
    Faith:
    Baptist
    There may have been an argument for "basically synonymous" in you post, but since it not presented in plain language, I doubt it.

    Here is John 21:15-19 NASB

    Now when they had finished breakfast, Jesus *said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love [agapao] Me more than these?” He *said to Him, “Yes, Lord; You know that I love [phileo]You.” He *said to him, “Tend My lambs.” He *said to him again, a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you love [agapao] Me?” He *said to Him, “Yes, Lord; You know that I love [phileo] You.” He *said to him, “Shepherd My sheep.” He *said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love [phileo] Me?” Peter was hurt because He said to him the third time, “Do you love [phileo] Me?” And he said to Him, “Lord, You know all things; You know that I love [phileo] You.” Jesus *said to him, “Tend My sheep.

    “Truly, truly I tell you, when you were younger, you used to put on your belt and walk wherever you wanted; but when you grow old, you will stretch out your hands and someone else will put your belt on you, and bring you where you do not want to go.
    Now He said this, indicating by what kind of death he would glorify God. And when He had said this, He *said to him, “Follow Me!”​

    Obviously, we have a radically different understanding of this text! Peter says he loves Jesus like a family member or close friend, but Jesus had asked if Peter was willing to die for Jesus. Peter fell short as he only loved Jesus like a brother or close friend.
    Jesus asks a second time and honest Peter still says he falls short. Then one of the most important truths of Christ's gospel is presented. Jesus, then says to Peter, do you love me like a brother or close friend. So Jesus accepted Peter just as he was, flaws and all and like the rest of us, told Peter to engage in His ministry. Thus, because of the distinction between agapao and phileo, Jesus makes an incredibly important point, totally missed by using the same English word to translate the two very different meanings.

    Certainly if we have reached "agapao" love for Christ, we can shepherd His flock, but even if we fall short with our genuine love for Christ as our brother, He tells us to "feed" His sheep!!!! Jesus uses "broken reeds" just as we are, rather than telling us to reach Christian maturity before we serve.
     
    #6 Van, Sep 11, 2023
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2023
    • Like Like x 1
  7. Johann!@#

    Johann!@# Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2023
    Messages:
    36
    Likes Received:
    10
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I believe you are correct Van-but hear me out.-.


    "love. . .love. . .love" There is an obvious threefold repetition which seems to relate to Peter's threefold denials in the courtyard of the High Priest (cf. John 18:17,25,27). There is a variety of parallels and contrasts throughout this section.

    love (phileō) versus love (agapaō)
    lambs versus sheep
    know (ginoskō) versus know (oida)


    There has been much discussion as to whether this refers to literary variety or if there is an intended contrast between these terms. John often uses variety, especially in this chapter (two terms for "children," "boat," and "fish"). There seems to be some distinction in this context between the Greek words agapaō and phileō, but this cannot be pushed because in Koine Greek they are synonymous (cf. John 3:35; 5:20; 11:3,5).

    I know-I know-there seems to be a contradiction here-but hear Bob out as to WHY.


    SPECIAL TOPIC: LOVE (agapē)

    "do you love Me more than these"

    The syntax is ambiguous as to the object of this question. Some assert that it refers to
    fishing as a vocation

    Peter's previous statements of loving Jesus more than the other disciples (cf. Matt. 26:33; Mark 14:29 and John 13:37)
    the first shall be servant of all (cf. Luke 9:46-48; 22:24-27)

    "Tend My lambs" This is a PRESENT ACTIVE IMPERATIVE. All three of these statements are the same grammatical form (cf. John 21:16 and 17), but slightly different wording (shepherd My sheep and tend My sheep).

    21:17 "Lord, you know all things" Peter is learning not to speak so fast. He expresses an answer which reflects good theology (cf. John 2:25; 6:61,64; 13:11; 16:30).

    "You know that I love You"

    There is a change in the Greek word for "know" between John 21:16 (oida) and John 21:17 (oida and ginoskō). The exact reason is uncertain and may simply involve variety.

    21:18 "stretch out your hands" This may be a technical idiom used (1) in the early church and (2) in Greek literature for "crucifixion."

    21:19 "signifying by what kind of death he would glorify God" Tradition asserts that Peter died by crucifixion in an upside-down position. In The Ecclesiastical History, Vol. 3:1, Eusebius says, "Peter was believed to have preached in Pontius, Galatia, Bithynia, Cappadocia, and Asia unto the Jews of the Diaspora. Having gone to Rome he was crucified head down at his own request." See note at John 1:14.

    "Follow Me"

    This is a PRESENT ACTIVE IMPERATIVE, as is John 21:22. This is related to the renewal and reaffirmation of Peter's call to leadership (cf. Matt. 4:19-20).

    I can understand how Utley is viewing this-in light of the other verbs John-but I do concur with you.
    Johann.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  8. Johann!@#

    Johann!@# Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2023
    Messages:
    36
    Likes Received:
    10
    Faith:
    Baptist
    This is well said-especially the last paragraph.
    Johann.
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  9. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,310
    Likes Received:
    1,109
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yes, I am aware, at least in part, of the speculation used to support phileo conveys the same idea as agapao. I do not see any merit in the arguments presented, that I have seen.

    1) There is no "three fold repetition." Jesus asks twice do you agapao Me, and then follows with do you phileo Me.
    2) Jesus says "feed my lambs" referring to little or young or immature followers needing to be fed spiritual milk.
    3) Jesus says "feed [tend] my sheep referring to followers anywhere alone the growth path to Christian maturity.
    4) Jesus may have used irony when He ask Peter if He agapao loved Him more (or as much) than the other disciples, since Peter had claimed to love Him more.(Matthew 26:33).
    5) John 21:15 "you know" (eido); John 21:16 "you know" (eido); John 21:17 "you know" (eido). In verse 15 Peter declares Jesus knows Peter's love. In verse 16, Peter repeats that Jesus knows the quality and quanity of Peters phileo love. And in verse 17, Peter declares that Jesus knows all these disciples, thus able to determine is Peter's phileo love is as much or more than the other disciples.
    6) In John 11:3, Jesus is said to phileo love Lazarus and in John 11:5 Jesus is said to agapao love Lazarus, so the speculation is offered that both words are used to mean the same thing. However, if they convey two different kinds of love, and Jesus loved Lazarus in both ways, then these verses do not support the argument of having the same meaning.
    7) Comparing the use of "eido" with the use of "ginosko" in John 21:17. Jesus knows (apprehends) the kinds of love held by His disciples, and He has come to understand, discerned through His evaluation, the philoeo love of Peter. Peter is not where he should be, but Peter is good to go where he is!
     
  10. Johann!@#

    Johann!@# Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2023
    Messages:
    36
    Likes Received:
    10
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You have just made an argument for my case.

    12:43. On the other hand, John uses phileo (in various forms) about 13 times (Jn. 5:20, 11:3, 11:36, 12:25, 15:19, 16:27, 20:2, 21:15, 21:16, 21:17), and this includes the Father loving (phileo-love) the Son in Jn. 5:20, Lazarus, whom Jesus loved (phileo-love) in Jn.



    . THE SYNONYMOUS WORDS
    FOR
    "LOVE".


    1. THE VERB.
    1. agapao = to regard with favour, to make much of a thing or a person, on principle. The cause or ground of No. 2.

    2. phileo = to kiss, to be fond of, having regard to feeling as distinct from principle. The demonstration of No. 1. Hence No. 2 is never used of man's love to God : this is always No. 1. Both words are used of God's love to man. No. 2 is used of the Lord's love for Lazarus (Joh_11:3; Joh_11:36) but not in v . Joh_11:5, where the sisters are included. See the notes on Joh_21:15-17; and on Joh_12:25.

    2. THE NOUN.
    1. agape . No. 2 below, was the common word used by the Greeks, for love; and even this is far lower than the N.T. philadelphia ( = love of the brethren). Agape is spontaneous love, irrespective of "rights". The word was supposed to be peculiar to the N.T., but it is found in the Papyri .
    2. philanthropia = philanthropy, or love of man, which did not go beyond giving man his "rights", among the Greeks. It is used in a higher sense in Tit_3:4; occurs elsewhere only in Act_28:2. Cp. the Adverb philanthropos (Act_27:3, "courteously").

    3. THE ADJECTIVE.
    agapetos = beloved. The word used of the Lord Jesus by the Father. See Mat_3:17; Mat_12:18; Mat_17:5. Mar_1:11; Mar_9:7. Luk_3:22; and in Mar_12:6. Luk_20:13, by Himself. A special epithet of the Saints in the Epistles.

    Philia is the most general type of love in Scripture, encompassing love for fellow humans, care, respect, and compassion for people in need. The concept of brotherly love that unites believers is unique to Christianity. Jesus said philia would be an identifier of his followers: "By this everyone will know that you are my disciples if you love one another." (John 13:35, NIV)


    Difference of opinion also exists about the use of ἀγαπᾶς and φιλῶ, most interpreters believing that by the former a love based on esteem or judgment is indicated, by the latter the affection of the heart.

    The Vulgate distinguishes by using “diligis” and “amo”. Trench (Synonyms, 38) uses this distinction for the interpretation of this passage, and maintains that Peter in his reply intentionally changes the colder ἀγαπᾶς into the warmer φιλῶ.

    It is very doubtful whether this is justifiable.


    The two words are used interchangeably to express the love of Jesus for John, see Joh_13:23, and Joh_20:2; also for His love for Lazarus, Joh_11:3; Joh_11:5; Joh_11:36. And that the distinction cannot be maintained at any rate in this conversation is obvious from Joh_21:17; for if the words differed in meaning, it could not be said that “Peter was grieved because Jesus a third time said, φιλεῖς με”; because Jesus had not used these words three times.

    The words seem interchanged for euphony, as in Aelian, Var. Hist., ix. 1, where Hiero is said to have lived with his three brothers, πάνυ σφόδρα ἀγαπήσας αὐτοὺς καὶ ὑπʼ αὐτῶν φιληθεὶς ἐν τῷ μέρει. In Peter’s answer there is no sense of any discrepancy between the kind of love demanded and the love felt. It comes with a ναί, Κύριε. Why need He ask? σὺ οἶδας.… In this appeal to Christ’s own knowledge there is probably, as Weiss suggests, a consciousness of his own liability to be deceived, as shown in his recent experience.

    Shalom
    Johann
     
  11. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    34,629
    Likes Received:
    3,698
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Adrian!!!!!!
     
  12. Johann!@#

    Johann!@# Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2023
    Messages:
    36
    Likes Received:
    10
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I hope everything is good?
    The post is from a Baptist minister-retired.
    Johann.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    34,629
    Likes Received:
    3,698
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I couldn't refrain from the Rocky reference :Biggrin .

    Yes, all good here. I hope you enjoy this forum. It's good to have you here.
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  14. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,310
    Likes Received:
    1,109
    Faith:
    Baptist
    1) John 11:36 does not support "interchangeability" as Jesus loved Lazarus both with agapao and phileo love.
    2) Agapao is not based on esteem or on justifiable characteristics It flows from grace!!!
    3) John 13:23 says Jesus loved his disciple (and by inference all His disciples) with unconditional sacrificial love (agapao). In John 20:2, scripture indicates Jesus also love John with phileo affection. The premise that one excludes the other, thus denying Jesus loved John both ways is without merit.
     
  15. Johann!@#

    Johann!@# Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2023
    Messages:
    36
    Likes Received:
    10
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Oh my!
    I can tell-from experience-many have no Agapao-Phileo-Eros-storche-for anyone-


    HEBREW WORD FOR LOVE: OTHER USES OF AHAB
    Genesis 24:67: And Isaac brought her into his mother Sarah’s tent, and took Rebekah, and she became his wife; and he loved her: and Isaac was comforted after his mother’s death.
    Exodus 20:6: And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
    Deuteronomy 4:37: And because he loved thy fathers, therefore he chose their seed after them, and brought thee out in his sight with his mighty power out of Egypt
    Job 19:19: All my inward friends abhorred me: and they whom I loved are turned against me.
    Psalms 4:2: O ye sons of men, how long will ye turn my glory into shame? how long will ye love vanity, and seek after leasing? Selah.
    Proverbs 1:22: How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?
    Ecclesiastes 3:8: A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.
    Song of Songs 1:3: Because of the savour of thy good ointments thy name is as ointment poured forth, therefore do the virgins love thee.
    Micah 3:2: Who hate the good, and love the evil; who pluck off their skin from off them, and their flesh from off their bones;
    Zechariah 8:17: And let none of you imagine evil in your hearts against his neighbour; and love no false oath: for all these are things that I hate, saith the Lord.
    Malachi 1:2: I have loved you, saith the Lord. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob’s brother? saith the Lord: yet I loved Jacob
    2. AGAPAO – GREEK WORD FOR LOVE
    God’s love is described as the Greek word agapao, which means unconditional love, preferential love that is chosen and acted out by the will. It is not love based on the goodness of the beloved, or upon natural affinity or emotion. Rather this is benevolent love that always seeks the good of the beloved.

    This type of love is exclusive to the Christian community because it flows directly from God’s love: “Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and everyone that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love” (1 John 4:7,8).

    GREEK WORD FOR LOVE: OTHER USES OF AGAPAO
    Matthew 5:43: Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
    Luke 6:27: But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you
    John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    Romans 13:8: Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
    1 Corinthians 2:9: But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
    Ephesians 2:4: But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
    2 Thessalonians 2:16: Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
    James 1:12: Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
    1 Peter 1:8: Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
    1 John 3:10: In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
    3 John 1:1: The elder unto the wellbeloved Gaius, whom I love in the truth.
    3. AGAPE – GREEK WORD FOR LOVE
    Although common in both the Septuagint and the New Testament, the word rarely occurs in existing secular Greek manuscripts of the period. Like its synonym philia, it designates love between persons (John 13:35), or people for God (1 John 2:15), of God for humanity (Rom. 5:8), and of God for Christ (John 17:26).

    Whereas phila emphasizes the idea of love arising from personal relationships, agape is founded upon deep appreciation and high regard. It is perhaps for this reason that agape is the love which God commands.

    GREEK WORD FOR LOVE: OTHER USES OF AGAPE
    Matthew 24:12: And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
    Luke 11:42: But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
    John 5:42: But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
    Romans 8:35: Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
    2 Corinthians 6:6: By pureness, by knowledge, by long suffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned
    Ephesians 2:4: But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us
    Philippians 1:16: The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds
    1 Thessalonians 5:8: But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
    1 Timothy 1:5: Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned
    Titus 2:2: That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.
    3 John 1:6: Which have borne witness of thy charity before the church: whom if thou bring forward on their journey after a godly sort, thou shalt do well
    Revelation 3:4: Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

    Have a good day
    J.
     
  16. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,310
    Likes Received:
    1,109
    Faith:
    Baptist
    1) God accepts our best effort, even when far short of Christ's perfect love.

    2) Agapao refers to unconditional love, our volitional love for God and others. Agapao love not based on preferential love, or something of merit in the behavior of others. It always seeks to bestow benefit to others whether saved or lost.

    3) Phileo is not a synonym of agapao. When God uses different words, we should seek to find the nuance conveyed by the choice.

    4) 1 John 4:7 does not say "everyone who loves is born of God." It says "all" (???) and in context, its message is "all beloved."

    5) Agapao does not designate love between any human, but does designate believer's love for one another.

    6) 1 John 2:15 does not refer human love for God, it says if a person agapao loves the society of fallen humanity, the Father's agapao love is not "in him" meaning he or she has not been born anew.

    7) Yes, Romans 5:8 does refer to God's agapao love for fallen sinners. Not at issue.

    8) Yes, John 17:26 does refer to God's agapao love for Christ. Not at issue.

    9) Phileo emphasizes the idea of love arising from personal relationships, i.e. affection born of experience.

    10) Agapao is not founded upon "deep appreciation" and "high regard" as it is unconditional. (This bogus view is inconsistent with the above cited and valid claim of unconditional love.)
     
  17. Johann!@#

    Johann!@# Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2023
    Messages:
    36
    Likes Received:
    10
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The Christian tradition has embellished the idea that that the word “agape” refers to an altruistic, unconditional superior kind of love that exclusively refers to God’s love toward humanity–a Christian kind of love, while the word “phileo” refers to a brotherly lesser kind of love. This is the traditional interpretation of the words above and by far the most popular one. Based on this assumption, many such interpretations have been promulgated in many sermons and various devotional writings. While nothing is wrong with this traditional designation per se, there is a problem to see it exclusively this way across the board. When we look closer at the Bible we find this interpretation inconclusive and unconvincing due to several considerations which I will outline below:

    1. The language spoken by Jesus and the disciples is not Greek but Aramaic. Although Greek language has multiple words for love, such as “phileo” and “agapao,” the Aramaic does not. The Aramaic word for love was “ܚܘܒܐ” and it simply means love or strong affection. This Greek based kind of distinction cannot be made in the Aramaic language, for the passage above, since the dialogue between Jesus and Peter transpired in the Aramaic.

    2. The popular idea that “agapao” always expresses the divine, unconditional, selfless, superior love whereas “phileo” expresses the human, inferior love is simply not correct. It is a Christian myth (one of many), a generalization that does not do justice to the semantic range of these two Greek words. The two words have been used interchangeably in the Gospel of John as well as in the New Testament. Here are just a few examples:

    Mathew 5:46–Jesus says, “If you “agapao” those who “agapao” you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?” You see, here the word “agapao” is used with reference to sinners in a profane way. Same is true in the parallel passage of Luke 6:32. The idea of unselfish unconditional love does not hold here.

    Luke 11:43–The term “agapao” is used in reference to the supreme seats in the synagogue with no meaning of “unconditional.”

    John 3:19–Here it is recorded that men “agapao’d” the darkness rather than the light. Can this be an unconditional love?

    John 12:43–Men “agapao’d” the approval of men rather than the approval of God. This is clearly not unselfish.

    2 Tim. 4:10–Demas “agapao’d” the present age (referring to the worldly ungodly values). This cannot be the traditionally godly love.

    1 John 2:15–The apostle tells us that we should not “agapao” the world. Here it is again a profane/worldly kind of love.

    2 Peter 2:15–Even Balaam and the false prophets “agapao” the wages of unrighteousness. Here the word “agapao” is used with reference to false prophets.

    The same interchangeability is also true of the word “phileo” throughout the New Testament. A few examples will suffice:

    John 5:20–The Father “phileo” the Son. Here the intra-Trinitarian love between the members of the trinity is described as “phileo.”

    John 16:27–The Father “phileo” the disciples who “phileo” God. God’s love here is a “phileo” love in both directions.

    1 Corinthians 16:22– Anyone who does not “phileo” Jesus is acursed!

    Revelation 3:19–The risen Christ loves His disciples with a “phileo” love.

    The two words are also used interchangeably together also. Here a few examples:

    As I mentioned above, Luke 11:43 says that the Pharisees would “agapao” the chief seats in the synagogue, while Matthew 23:6 says that they “phileo” those places of honor; moreover, the Pharisees “phileo’d” to be seen praying on street corners (Matthew 6:5). Therefore both words have been used with reference to these seats of power.

    God loves Jesus with both kinds of love. In John 3:35 and 15:9, says that the Father loves Him, the word used is the verb “agapao”. Yet John 5:20 speaks of the Father’s “phileo” love for the Son.

    In John 11:5 we are told that Jesus “agapao’d” Lazarus, yet a few verses later in the same chapter (11:36) we are told that He “phileo’d” Lazarus.

    In John 17:23, the Father loves the disciples with “agapao” love; but in John 16:27, Jesus tells the disciples that the Father loves them with “phileo” love.

    In John 20:2 it is written that John is the disciple whom Jesus phileo’d, and just a few verses later, in 21:20 John calls himself the disciple whom Jesus agapao’d.

    Therefore, the word “phileo” can be seen in contexts which “agapao” would be expected to occur if the traditional definitions are correct. However, the use of “phileo” in these contexts renders such traditional views as unlikely at least and erroneous at best.

    3. Moreover, no reliable distinction can be drawn from the LXX usage of the two words either. For example, the love that Jacob had for Joseph is expressed with “agapao” in Gen. 37:3 and in the very next verse the word “phileo” has been used (Gen. 37:4). In 2 Samuel 13 when Amnon raped Tamar, both verbs were used in the same context. In Proverbs 8:17 both verbs were used again, for the same Hebrew word.

    4. Apostle John frequently uses stylistic variations of his own in different occasions with reference to different pairs of words. We have seen the first pair being “agapao” and “phileo” in the passage above. Another pair he uses interchangeably in the same passage is the pair “bosko” and “poimano” (“feed” and “take care” of sheep). Moreover, another pair also is “arnia” and “probata” (“lambs” and “sheep”). Yet another pair used in the same pericope is “oida” and “ginosko” (both meaning “to know” in vs 17).

    5. The climax of this story in our passage (John 21:15-19), doesn’t hinge on the word “agapao,” but rather, Peter’s healing and restoration are seen in the use of the verb “phileo.”

    In conclusion the variegated uses of “agapao” and “phileo” in this passage, as throughout the New Testament and LXX, are for stylistic reasons and variety rather than having different semantic connotations or implied meanings. This is a rather common practice of the fourth evangelist. Jesus is repeating the question three times to show Peter the importance of ministry. If we say we love Jesus we should show that love practically in loving them as Jesus loved them. The repetition usually was used in the Bible in order to convey the importance (two times) and highest degree (three times) of something.

    6. Additional notes: Some linguists have seen a distinction between the two Greek words “agapao” and “phileo.” However, many commentators, linguists and theologians have sharply criticized a “cemented (always true)” distinction between these two words. If such distinction exists it should be decided in individual passages, locally and not generalized over the entire Bible. It is true that “agapao” and “agape” have become signature words for divine love in Christianity, especially modern and contemporary Christianity. The word “agapao” was rarely used in the classical Greek, and that mostly with the meaning of “love” between a man and a woman. It was also rarely used with religions connotations. The word cognates of “agape” came to prominence in the Greek literature around fourth century B.C. Before that time “phileo” was the word of choice for the Greeks in both literature and everyday life. “Eros” was the “poetical” word used much in literature with that same meaning. It seems that “phileo” started to drop usage because it started to connote more and more the word “kiss.” Therefore, in this way, “agape” started to be used more and more for standard love in the classical period. However, it was the translators of the LXX who took the agape love to its glory and gave to it new and special connotations, especially in the religious arena. So much so that it was once thought that the LXX actually coined the word. “Agapao” in LXX was generally used (as “agapan”) for God and man alike, although the former seems to have had preference. It was via LXX that the agape love came on the stage of early Christianity, and was used by the NT authors generally in the same manner as the LXX. Most commentators and linguists currently agree that seeing too much distinction between “agapao” and “phileo” in the Bible leads to fallacious exegesis.

    –Pastor Romeo Fulga, Member, Society for Biblical Literature, Evangelical Theological Society, American Academy of Religion

    [The initial Blog Title at the top says “by Michael Snow” which this wordpress format automatically inserts on all my posts and I have no way of editing that. As noted below that title at the top and here at the bottom, this post is by Pastor Fulga.]
     
  18. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,310
    Likes Received:
    1,109
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Returning to topic.

    Baptists are split on the specifics of John 3:16. When I was young, and the "Bible" was the KJV, we memorized the verse this way: For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, so that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.

    1) The first issue is that some thought the verse was saying how much God loved. Now scholars translate the verse to indicate the idea is how or in what manner God loved.

    2) Next, the translation of Kosmos (G2889) as world is ambiguous. The Greek word refers to an interrelated system, such as a planet or a society. Contextually, in this verse "kosmos" refers to fallen humanity.

    3) Next the idea of "give" certainly indicates to provide or make available for use. Looking a little deeper the idea is that the gift would provide a blessing (shall not perish).

    4) "Only begotten" is a mistranslation of "monogenes" and should be translated "one of a kind," unique" or "uniquely divine." Jesus is not God's only Son, as Adam was also the son of God, and every born anew believer is also a child of God. However Jesus was one of a kind, uniquely divine, God incarnate.

    5) "Whosoever believes" refers to an undetermined segment of fallen humanity, not a preselected segment.

    6) In Him refers to those who spiritually enter into Christ's spiritual body, as the preposition translated "in" means "into." Since humanity is not able to change their spiritual location (going from the realm of darkness into the marvelous light of God's kingdom) "into" refers to God crediting the person's faith as "righteous faith" and on that basis transferring the person into Christ.

    7) Once placed within Christ, the person is made (eternally) alive together with Christ.

    When these observations are addressed, the resulting interpretive translation reads:

    God loved humanity in this way, He gave is uniquely divine Son so that everyone believing into Him will not perish but have eternal life.
     
  19. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,310
    Likes Received:
    1,109
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Dear Johann, please stop repeating claims I addressed, it is a waste of effort.
    You posted "agapao" was unconditional, and now you post "agapao" is conditional? Pick a side.
    The NT was written in Koine Greek with each word inspired by God. Do you disagree?
    No one said that "agapao" "always expresses God's love, and never expresses human love.
    What was said is that "agapao" and "phileo" love have different aspects.
    I do not agree God did not intend by His choice of words to convey a nuanced message. He did!
     
  20. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,310
    Likes Received:
    1,109
    Faith:
    Baptist
    God [Agapao] loved humanity in this way, He gave is uniquely divine Son so that everyone believing into Him will not perish but have everlasting life.

    Here God demonstrated His unconditional love for fallen humanity, for while we were yet sinners, He gave His Son so that everyone believing into Him will not perish but have everlasting life. This act of love bestowed benefit, the means of salvation, to fallen humanity.
     
Loading...