1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

History of the Penal Substitution Atonement.

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Alan Gross, Sep 13, 2023.

Top Posters
  1. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    5,632
    Likes Received:
    461
    Faith:
    Baptist
    #1 Alan Gross, Sep 13, 2023
    • Like Like x 2
  2. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    17,827
    Likes Received:
    1,363
    Faith:
    Baptist
    30 AD is from the foundation of the word. Compare Luke 11:50 usage.
     
    #2 37818, Sep 13, 2023
  3. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    5,632
    Likes Received:
    461
    Faith:
    Baptist
    "As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:" Luke 11:50.

    I think we need to go from Abel on, with regard to God's prophets having their blood shed.

    Abel was a prophet "by the sacrifice which he offered up, he gave a prophetical hint of the sacrifice of Christ, in that he spoke beforehand of it, as being dead he yet speaks". Gill.

    As far as the "Lamb slain before the foundation of the world";

    "Christ, who is compared to a Lamb for its harmlessness, meekness, and patience, and was typified by the lambs in the legal sacrifices; and this book is called his, because he was present at the making of it, and was concerned in putting down the names in it, John 13:18",

    "I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me."

    "and he himself stands first in it as the elect of God, and the head of all the elect, who, as members, were chosen in him:

    "the act of election was made in him, and stands sure in him; and he is the author and giver of that life, which men are chosen unto both here and hereafter: and he may be said to be "slain from the foundation of the world"; in the decree and purpose of God, by which he was set forth, or foreappointed to be the propitiation for sin, and was foreordained, before the foundation of the world, to redeem his people by his blood,

    "and in the promise of God immediately after the fall of man, that the seed of the woman should have his heel bruised, and he himself should bruise the serpent's head, which made it as sure as if it was then done;

    "and in the sacrifices, which were immediately upon this offered up, and were types of the death and sacrifice of Christ;" Gill

    I quote Gill because I like him, don't I?

    Comprehensive/ clear headed.
     
    #3 Alan Gross, Sep 13, 2023
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    17,827
    Likes Received:
    1,363
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Revelation 13:8, ". . . from the foundation of the world. . . ."
    . . . απο καταβολης κοσμου . . . .
    Luke 11:50, ". . . from the foundation of the world, . . ."
    . . . απο καταβολης κοσμου . . . .

    Its proof is self evident.
     
    #4 37818, Sep 13, 2023
  5. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    5,632
    Likes Received:
    461
    Faith:
    Baptist
    What is self evident is:

    God's decrees and purposes are "of old", "ancient", etc., meaning from Eternity Past.

    They are something else.

    THE ACTS AND WORKS OF GOD
    1. Of The Internal Acts And Works Of God; And Of His Decrees In General.
    2. Of The Special Decrees Of God, Relating To Rational Creatures, Angels, And Men; And Particularly Of Election.
    3. Of The Decree Of Rejection, Of Some Angels, And Of Some Men.
    4. Of The Eternal Union Of The Elect Of God Unto Him.
    5. Of Other Eternal And Immanent Acts In God, Particularly Adoption And Justification.
    6. Of The Everlasting Council Between The Three Divine Persons, Concerning The Salvation Of Men.
    7. Of The Everlasting Covenant Of Grace, Between The Father, And The Son, And The Holy Spirit.
     
    #5 Alan Gross, Sep 13, 2023
  6. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    7,270
    Likes Received:
    559
    Faith:
    Baptist
    37 you have to realize that many calvinists use a special bible written just for them. All the texts are changed so that it supports their philosophy.
     
    #6 Silverhair, Sep 13, 2023
  7. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,742
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    According to Dr. Wallace **, the Greek grammar of Revelation 13:8 is difficult, because of the difficulty in determining which action (written or slain) is modified by "since the down-casting of humanity." Modern translations go with written since (or from) the down-casting of humanity or the mistranslation "from the foundation of the world," such as: NASB, NET, NRSV, CSB, LEB, and WEB.

    As far as history is concerned, the first action is God the Father choosing God the Son to be His lamb before the down-casting of humanity, probably before creation of the heavens and the earth. (1 Peter 1:20) The Greek word translated "foreknown" does not refer to knowledge of the future, but rather knowledge acquired or formulated in the past being utilized in the present. Thus God had formulated His predetermined plan of redemption before humanity was created, let alone Adam's sin.
    ____________________
    ** Footnote from NET bible:


    27tn The prepositional phrase “since the foundation of the world” is traditionally translated as a modifier of the immediately preceding phrase in the Greek text, “the Lamb who was killed” (so also G. B. Caird, Revelation [HNTC], 168), but it is more likely that the phrase “since the foundation of the world” modifies the verb “written” (as translated above). Confirmation of this can be found in Rev 17:8 where the phrase “written in the book of life since the foundation of the world” occurs with no ambiguity. ​
     
    #7 Van, Sep 14, 2023
  8. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    17,827
    Likes Received:
    1,363
    Faith:
    Baptist
    None of these other arguments changes my view.
    You do not agree with my view. OK. Your agreement is not required.
     
    #8 37818, Sep 14, 2023
  9. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,742
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Any time since the down-casting of humanity until the end of the age of grace is "from the foundation of the world." When someones name is written in the Lamb's book of life today, the name was written since the down-casting of humanity!
     
    #9 Van, Sep 14, 2023
  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The actual history of Penal Substitution Theory is more interesting (for those interested in Historical Theology).

    A few things to know is that things had to be worked out for many of these things to exist.

    For example, the Early Church did not believe in "God in three persons, same natures, different persons". This has the be worked out (terms like "nature" and "persons" were debated).

    Calvinism did not believe in the doctrine of Limited Atonement until the 17th century (the Scope of the Atonement was not a topic until then. It developed from working through theology).

    The Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement is the same.

    The Atonement was viewed through one of many forms of Ransom Theory until Anselm. Christ suffered and died under the power of Satan. The difference was exactly how this happened (a ransom paid to Satan, a Ransom paid to "death", a ransom paid but not in terms of a ransom received).

    Anselm developed the groundwork for the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement with Substitution Theory. Aquinas developed it into the RCC Satisfaction Theory. During the Reformation Aquinas' theory was reworked into Penal Substitution Theory (exchanging merit for justice).
     
    #10 JonC, Sep 14, 2023
(You must log in or sign up to post here.)
Loading...