Having to make a quick decision

Salty · Sep 19, 2023

Saw this from a Baptist pastor on FB:

How would you answer this pastor?

I was faced with a difficult situation this past Sunday, and I think I— and my fellow elders— failed to do the right thing. I’d greatly appreciate your thoughts and advice on how to handle this.
For context’s sake, we’re a small, rural church in Iowa. We average about 45 attendees a service. I’m a young pastor (mid-twenties) with two years of experience under my belt. I invited a Gideon to speak for 10 minutes on their ministry of providing Bibles. He was cordial and polite, and he spoke for the allotted ten minutes after our worship songs, and then I preached my sermon.
At the tail end of the service, right after our closing hymn, I was about to lead our congregation in prayer, when the Gideon speaker’s wife loudly called my name from the audience and asked to give her testimony. She was very emotional, on the verge of tears. She said something along the lines of “Pastor Micah, this is a Baptist church, and I don’t know if this is allowed, but I would like to give my testimony.”
Wanting to follow the instructions of 1 Timothy 2:12, but at the same time wanting to be considerate of our guest and not unnecessarily inhospitable, I told her to “wait until the service is over.” This church has had some pastors’ wives give testimonies before, but not in the context of the gathering of the church in worship. It’s been done in the context of Sunday school “prayer and praise” time, and other similar circumstances, but not in the service.
I thought that the lady would recognize what I *meant*— namely, that she should share on her own time, *not in the context of congregational worship in church.* But she took my specific wording too literally.
Immediately after my prayer, she began to speak in front of the congregation. She immediately took the opportunity to briefly jab at Baptist churches for “shutting her down,” which was an accusation that (given what she did in my own church) I have reason to believe was inaccurate and warped. She was very clearly unstable, mentally. Part of me wondered whether she was literally on drugs. It’s not that her testimony was completely incoherent, or that God hasn’t done some good things for her health (the core of her “testimony,” outside of the rambling, was about how she’d been refocused on God in the midst of some health troubles) but it wasn’t the appropriate setting for a woman to speak (Biblically), and some of what she said was very unsound.
In retrospect, my choice of wording to express what I meant was a dreadful mistake. My intention was to gently dissuade her from speaking in the context of the gathering of believers for church, but clearly she either didn’t understand, or didn’t care, or some combination of the two. I take full responsibility for the lack of clarity in my response to her. I should have simply said “No,” even though it would have seemed rude, and been perfectly clear in my answer, rather than trying to put it in a way that was more palatable and “nice.” I’m frustrated with my deer-in-the-headlights response and lack of preparedness.
I thought that her husband would have understood what I meant, and that he would have stopped her from going on, but he didn’t. He just stood there, looking down at the floor, clearly embarrassed, but not enough of a leader to gently tell her “No.”
Then again, my leadership in that situation wasn’t much better, since I didn’t put a stop to it before it started.
Meanwhile, I’m disappointed that the three other elders of my church didn’t do anything to assist the situation. I think they, like me, were taken aback by her audacity, so I don’t blame them for it happening, but I do wish that one of them would have recognized that it was a problem.
She rambled on for a few minutes before I eventually cut her off by asking if she would stay after our council meeting so my elders and I could pray over her. I sensed that she deeply needed prayer that God would give her respect for His order of worship and for His Word’s sufficiency, and that He would help her to see some of the errors that she had fallen into. I thought my fellow elders would have the discernment to sense that, too.
But when we went to pray over her, the other elders thanked God for what He’d done in her life and for her testimony, and pretty much just affirmed her. They didn’t even try to pray for God to give her clarity (despite her clear lack of it, mentally), or for anything. They just seemed confused.
Afterward, I took the elders into my office and confessed to them that I had sinned against the church by not putting an end to that situation, and I explained to them why it was inappropriate for the speaker’s wife to usurp authority by speaking to the congregation in that way. (It would still have been wrong if she was a man, but Paul’s instructions to Timothy regarding gender roles and speaking in church at all are perfectly perspicuous). I told them that we would need to meet again to formulate a protocol for how we should handle people interrupting the service, so that we can avoid the same mistake while maintaining grace.
I spoke with a few trustworthy, spiritually mature people from the church afterward. Two of them acknowledged that I should have handled it better. The rest didn’t think that I could realistically have done anything differently. None of them were able to provide much in the way of thoughts on how to address the situation further. I also spoke to my father, who watched the live stream, and he agreed with me that it shouldn’t have happened, but he thought it was handled better than most. The problem is that “better than most” doesn’t cut it when it comes to honoring the Lord in how I lead and defend the flock.
My questions are:
1.) How should I, as pastor of this church, address this situation Biblically?
2.) How can I communicate my sin to my congregation while helping them to understand *why* it was a sin, and while not bringing further shame upon the church?
3.) How can our council of elders prevent these situations in the future?
4.) Have I disqualified myself?

JonC · Sep 19, 2023

Interesting.

I think that the church service is for the congregation. If a member of the congregation wants to give their testimony I believe it should be allowed.

I would hesitate to hand over the pulpit to somebody outside of the congregation without first conducting a careful examination.

Scarlett O. · Sep 19, 2023

How would I answer this very young man? I would not answer him. His attitude towards women based on his poor interpretation of the word is already deeply engrained. He wouldn't listen to me anyway - I might "teach" him something. So I would just keep scrolling.

How on God's green earth is a woman asking to give her testimony after the closing hymn a violation of the Bible saying that a woman should not steal authority away from a man or lead them in a teaching????

I struggle deeply with issues like this and always have. I will say that the LORD has comforted me in my times of tears that this is His problem and not mine and my fretting over it will change nothing. My getting mad as a wet hen will change nothing. I should just turn it over to Him and move on.

I would not answer him. I would keep scrolling.

He should have gladly offered her a few moments to give testimony to the LORD and then when he saw it was off the wall, he could have gently stopped her.

canadyjd · Sep 19, 2023

I would tell him to quit attempting to make this incident about himself. “My sin, my failure of leadership”.

I would advise him to listen to his elders, who appear to be much more mature in their faith as they didn’t see this as a particularly big problem.

I’m especially astounded that he didn’t approve of their prayers for this Christian lady that is obviously passionate about sharing her testimony of what Christ has done for her. If only all of us could articulate with passion, urgency and clarity.

The protocol, as JonC pointed out, is to vet any non member, male or female, prior to giving them the opportunity to address the congregation.

Beyond that, he did ok. His mistake is dealing with the aftermath. I doubt the pits of hell will open and swallow his church because of this incident, though he seems to think so.

peace to you

Reynolds · Sep 19, 2023

Salty said: ↑

Saw this from a Baptist pastor on FB:

How would you answer this pastor?

I was faced with a difficult situation this past Sunday, and I think I— and my fellow elders— failed to do the right thing. I’d greatly appreciate your thoughts and advice on how to handle this.
For context’s sake, we’re a small, rural church in Iowa. We average about 45 attendees a service. I’m a young pastor (mid-twenties) with two years of experience under my belt. I invited a Gideon to speak for 10 minutes on their ministry of providing Bibles. He was cordial and polite, and he spoke for the allotted ten minutes after our worship songs, and then I preached my sermon.
At the tail end of the service, right after our closing hymn, I was about to lead our congregation in prayer, when the Gideon speaker’s wife loudly called my name from the audience and asked to give her testimony. She was very emotional, on the verge of tears. She said something along the lines of “Pastor Micah, this is a Baptist church, and I don’t know if this is allowed, but I would like to give my testimony.”
Wanting to follow the instructions of 1 Timothy 2:12, but at the same time wanting to be considerate of our guest and not unnecessarily inhospitable, I told her to “wait until the service is over.” This church has had some pastors’ wives give testimonies before, but not in the context of the gathering of the church in worship. It’s been done in the context of Sunday school “prayer and praise” time, and other similar circumstances, but not in the service.
I thought that the lady would recognize what I *meant*— namely, that she should share on her own time, *not in the context of congregational worship in church.* But she took my specific wording too literally.
Immediately after my prayer, she began to speak in front of the congregation. She immediately took the opportunity to briefly jab at Baptist churches for “shutting her down,” which was an accusation that (given what she did in my own church) I have reason to believe was inaccurate and warped. She was very clearly unstable, mentally. Part of me wondered whether she was literally on drugs. It’s not that her testimony was completely incoherent, or that God hasn’t done some good things for her health (the core of her “testimony,” outside of the rambling, was about how she’d been refocused on God in the midst of some health troubles) but it wasn’t the appropriate setting for a woman to speak (Biblically), and some of what she said was very unsound.
In retrospect, my choice of wording to express what I meant was a dreadful mistake. My intention was to gently dissuade her from speaking in the context of the gathering of believers for church, but clearly she either didn’t understand, or didn’t care, or some combination of the two. I take full responsibility for the lack of clarity in my response to her. I should have simply said “No,” even though it would have seemed rude, and been perfectly clear in my answer, rather than trying to put it in a way that was more palatable and “nice.” I’m frustrated with my deer-in-the-headlights response and lack of preparedness.
I thought that her husband would have understood what I meant, and that he would have stopped her from going on, but he didn’t. He just stood there, looking down at the floor, clearly embarrassed, but not enough of a leader to gently tell her “No.”
Then again, my leadership in that situation wasn’t much better, since I didn’t put a stop to it before it started.
Meanwhile, I’m disappointed that the three other elders of my church didn’t do anything to assist the situation. I think they, like me, were taken aback by her audacity, so I don’t blame them for it happening, but I do wish that one of them would have recognized that it was a problem.
She rambled on for a few minutes before I eventually cut her off by asking if she would stay after our council meeting so my elders and I could pray over her. I sensed that she deeply needed prayer that God would give her respect for His order of worship and for His Word’s sufficiency, and that He would help her to see some of the errors that she had fallen into. I thought my fellow elders would have the discernment to sense that, too.
But when we went to pray over her, the other elders thanked God for what He’d done in her life and for her testimony, and pretty much just affirmed her. They didn’t even try to pray for God to give her clarity (despite her clear lack of it, mentally), or for anything. They just seemed confused.
Afterward, I took the elders into my office and confessed to them that I had sinned against the church by not putting an end to that situation, and I explained to them why it was inappropriate for the speaker’s wife to usurp authority by speaking to the congregation in that way. (It would still have been wrong if she was a man, but Paul’s instructions to Timothy regarding gender roles and speaking in church at all are perfectly perspicuous). I told them that we would need to meet again to formulate a protocol for how we should handle people interrupting the service, so that we can avoid the same mistake while maintaining grace.
I spoke with a few trustworthy, spiritually mature people from the church afterward. Two of them acknowledged that I should have handled it better. The rest didn’t think that I could realistically have done anything differently. None of them were able to provide much in the way of thoughts on how to address the situation further. I also spoke to my father, who watched the live stream, and he agreed with me that it shouldn’t have happened, but he thought it was handled better than most. The problem is that “better than most” doesn’t cut it when it comes to honoring the Lord in how I lead and defend the flock.
My questions are:
1.) How should I, as pastor of this church, address this situation Biblically?
2.) How can I communicate my sin to my congregation while helping them to understand *why* it was a sin, and while not bringing further shame upon the church?
3.) How can our council of elders prevent these situations in the future?
4.) Have I disqualified myself?
Click to expand...

Everyone seemed to handle it wrong.
Pastor seems to have a misinterpretation of scripture. Pastor shouldn't aire out church business on Facebook.
Woman should be respectful of the church she is attending. As Gideon speakers, we, nor our guests we bring with us are supposed to cause problems or disputes in the church or attempt to set or correct doctrine. If the lady indeed became disruptive, the Gideon should have set his wife down.
I see it as handled badly by all involved.

xlsdraw · Sep 19, 2023

I have given testimony in church when the pastor opened the floor for testimonies.

I have asked a pastor friend suffering with stage 4 cancer, prior to his Sunday evening service, if I could be allowed to give a testimony of a truly miraculous healing at the end of the service. The pastor granted that request.

There is no way that I would do what this lady did. I believe that the pastor must retain order. I believe he should have stated something to the effect of "point of order" and denied her disorderly request.

xlsdraw · Sep 19, 2023

xlsdraw said: ↑

I have given testimony in church when the pastor opened the floor for testimonies.

I have asked a pastor friend suffering with stage 4 cancer, prior to his Sunday evening service, if I could be allowed to give a testimony of a truly miraculous healing at the end of the service. The pastor granted that request.

There is no way that I would do what this lady did. I believe that the pastor must retain order. I believe he should have stated something to the effect of "point of order" and denied her disorderly request.
Click to expand...

Additionally, the pastor should address his congregation at an upcoming service and address the importance of orderly service and that spontaneous things like this will not be tolerated.

Alan Gross · Sep 19, 2023

Salty said: ↑

“wait until the service is over.”
Click to expand...

That very could be what she had perceived had happened.

The issue is when the Worship Service is Conveyned for God's Business and then, when can the people consider themselves Dismissed.

After the prayer, at that time, she may have considered the Worship Service to have been Dismissed(?)

I'm noting that where and when the church people are assembled, doesn't Convine the Worship Service.

After the (final prayer), we are dismissed and everyone is free to talk, in the church building, where they stand. Is that part of it to you?

Often, we don't have an 'Invitation', but are simply Dismissed after the message and the preacher prays. But he will say, "we will be Dismissed in prayer.

Salty said: ↑

some pastors’ wives give testimonies before
Click to expand...

While the church body is Convened, I can see this as a problem. Any mention of a question or red flag issue that they bring up that could usurp the paster and men's and The Lord's authority should be obfuscated (thay word means different things to different people), but I believe and use it as meaning, "defend in advance".

No woman speaking, as a custom and command, defends any problems like this, in advance.

Oh, that gets this, below;

Salty said: ↑

but not in the context of the gathering of the church in worship
Click to expand...

Correct.

Salty said: ↑

It’s been done in the context of Sunday school “prayer and praise” time, and other similar circumstances, but not in the service.
Click to expand...

Right. perfectly O.K. and different IMHO.

Salty said: ↑

*not in the context of congregational worship in church.*
Click to expand...

This is what they call "the principal determinant' is a situation.

That is the issue.

Clarity on when the assembly is accually in congregational worship.

Salty said: ↑

Immediately after my prayer, she began to speak in front of the congregation. She immediately took the opportunity to briefly jab at Baptist churches for “shutting her down,”
Click to expand...

Dunno. You got blind-sided by something we even have to think about for the first time.

You 'had to let it ride' (she sounds like a hard horse to ride, regardless).

Then, at the first conveneint moment, for decorums sake, you stopped her.

Good enough. The Lord was watching the whole thing.

We don't have to go through 5 secretaries up there, to know if He 'will see us'.

HE DOES. Every second. Every moment and with HIS Tape recorder going.

Salty said: ↑

but it wasn’t the appropriate setting for a woman to speak (Biblically), and some of what she said was very unsound.
Click to expand...

Thus, God made imposed that prohibition for church members, much less a visitor.

Salty said: ↑

Then again, my leadership in that situation wasn’t much better, since I didn’t put a stop to it before it started.
Click to expand...

What are you, Hercules? Only the devil is going to fault you on your handling of it, the way I see it, and he certainly has.

Someone came into your assembly as a visitor with Spiritual Adultery and you shut them up. Good show. That was handled fine, along with the issue of usurpation, if the congregation was still Conveyed.

Salty said: ↑

The three other elders of my church didn’t do anything to assist the situation. I think they, like me, were taken aback by her audacity, so I don’t blame them for it happening, but I do wish that one of them would have recognized that it was a problem.
Click to expand...

It was a shock to everyone, including her husband, no doubt.

We had a missionary who was preaching when a man came in with a can of gasoline and a lite torch, saying he was burning the place down.

The missionary, who I know personally, jumped down from the pulpit, grabbed the fire and threw it, then the can, then kicked the man in his posterior and threw him out the front door.

Later, of course, he said, "That was the Deacon's job".

Salty said: ↑

I eventually cut her off
Click to expand...

Good enough. It's not like you're going to mace her. Lighten up(?)

Salty said: ↑

the other elders thanked God for what He’d done in her life and for her testimony, and pretty much just affirmed her. They didn’t even try to pray for God to give her clarity
Click to expand...

"They were still in a "let's make the best of this bump in the road and have faith that God understands that we will make adjustments for the brashness of it all to be avoided, later", as He leads you.

Salty said: ↑

it was inappropriate for the speaker’s wife to usurp authority by speaking to the congregation in that way.
Click to expand...

If you were still officially Convined as a church body, yes it was.

Salty said: ↑

we would need to meet again to formulate a protocol for how we should handle people interrupting the service so that we can avoid the same mistake while maintaining grace.
Click to expand...

Amen. Protocol for these situations is a great idea and your continued teaching of The Divine Order of the Sexes is also a very great idea, to help everyone be clear, as to what and why you're doing what you do. Our church has printed a book by that title for many years.

So, the teaching from the Lord of all of it comes first, as you have done and will do, and establishing a protocol for violation of it is next.

See if this is what you would consider Sound Baptist Doctrine if you don't already have it.

The Divine Order of the Sexes by C. D. Cole, free in pdf.
It comes right there to the page. No downloading, etc.

this excerpt is the way it starts!

"There is a Divine order of the sexes. To deny this order is to deny the Bible.

"To deny the Bible is to plunge into the sea of human experience without any real hope of surviving. This, many are willing to do in order to be in the swim.

"Much of the Bible is a dead letter to the average church member. He has no more use for the Bible as the rule of faith and practice than a hog has for breeches.

"What a settlement many are going to have to make with God for their arrogant setting aside of His holy word as impracticable! and out of date!

"According to the Divine order, the woman is subordinate to the man.
This can be established by many passages of Scripture.

"Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore, as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything" (Eph. 5:23,24).

"The aged women likewise, that they be in behavior as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good; That they may teach the young women to be sober, to be keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed" (Titus 2:4, 5).

See also Gen. 3:16;
I Cor. 11:3; 14:34, 35;
I Tim. 2:11, 12;
I Peter 3:1-6.

Amen?

rsr · Sep 19, 2023

These things happen. Several years ago, at the end of the service, a member came down for prayer and asked to talk to the congregation about how he had come through a dark time and was making his way back to God. Turns he'd had an affair (his wife was in the congregation that day) and he went on for about 20 minutes. I thought it was inappropriate, mostly I had no idea if his wife knew he was going to spill that information in public. But he was confessing his sins to the congregation and I think it was heartfelt.

I'm not sure what the pastor could have done to stop it once it started, and he had no reason to expect what happened since the guy had been attending for a while, was involved in several activities, and was well-liked in the congregation.

And in a couple of weeks practically no one will care about this "disorderliness."

Alan Gross · Sep 19, 2023

Salty said: ↑

didn’t think that I could realistically have done anything differently
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There is such a thing as reality down her, in dealing with so many people, etc.

Then, the Spiritual reality is that you were attacked by the evil one MOSTLY AGAINST YOUR CONFIDENCE?, OR COMMITMENT?, or something Satan was trying hit with a firey dart.

Salty said: ↑

1.) How should I, as pastor of this church, address this situation Biblically?
Click to expand...

Teach it to your people, have a protocol, and keep a good eye on visitors.

Their leaven can leaven a whole lump and that is A BIG DEAL also to teach.

Salty said: ↑

2.) How can I communicate my sin to my congregation while helping them to understand *why* it was a sin, and while not bringing further shame upon the church?
Click to expand...

Sin? Imperfect, maybe.... Shame? from who? The devil? I see no reason for any shame or that it was a sin on your part...

During a distraction, the song leader may be taught to wait for your single for him to stand straight up where he is and say, "Let's sing Amazing Grace". The SING IT! The deacons can be talking to her and escorting them out.

It may be a distraction of an animal getting loose or if you broke down in tears in your message and needed a break before continuing, etc.

I...have...found...that with...any DISTRACTION...that the devil tries to bring...YOU can use it for the purpose of calling ATTENTION ...to the SUBJECT, at hand.

USE THAT OPPORTUNITY.

Say, "If that kind of thing keeps happening, people are going to talk" and then launch into, "Well, let's go ahead and talk about, Headship and The Lordship of Christ, as Head of His churches.

Salty said: ↑

3.) How can our council of elders prevent these situations in the future?
Click to expand...

At Walmart, etc., they just have a group of their workers know to come stand close by to observe and watch for an escalation in a situation, etc.

2 or 3 Deacons walking up in prayer might get their attention and be sure to help you get back hold of the disturbance.

Salty said: ↑

4.) Have I disqualified myself?
Click to expand...

IMHO, the only thing you have disqualified yourself from, is being unaware Satan could attempt to sabotage you like this, which is the very reason for your people to be taught. And this wasn't your people that you have taught. and will continue to edify!!!!

Just be ready to use a wasp or a bee flying around as an Opportunity to use that Attention.

At the end of one message, I misquoted a verse that everyone else knew.
I said that happened to me when I was practicing it this morning.
They thought I had just goofed up and that was it and I did,

but I looked at them all and said, "Have I got everyone's attention?"
then, BAM hit them with whatever Blast I had for a closing.

I loved it, and they loved it.

Thank you, for your work in the Lord.

Marooncat79 · Sep 19, 2023

Why would she want to create a scene while visiting a church?

she should have had respect and held her tongue.

she was not a member there and was not specifically asked to speak.

it’s not about you Jasmine

Alan Gross · Sep 19, 2023

Salty said: ↑

I invited a Gideon to speak for 10 minutes on their ministry of providing Bibles.
Click to expand...

Marooncat79 said: ↑

she was not a member there and was not specifically asked to speak.
Click to expand...

I see the husband being invited to speak to be a problem in the first place.

Didn't know people did this.

The Lord 'could have been' showing disapproval of that point by allowing things to get shook up and an occasion for it all to be reexamined.

Scarlett O. · Sep 19, 2023

Alan Gross said: ↑

I see the husband being invited to speak to be a problem in the first place.

Didn't know people did this.

The Lord 'could have been' showing disapproval of that point by allowing things to get shook up and an occasion for it all to be reexamined.
Click to expand...

We have Gideon speakers at our church about 2-4 times a year. Their reports and testimonies of God's Word being distributed and supernaturally used around the world is wonderful.

They generally speak about 10-15 minutes. I'm going to start a thread about a few of their stories.

tyndale1946 · Sep 21, 2023

Scarlett O. said: ↑

We have Gideon speakers at our church about 2-4 times a year. Their reports and testimonies of God's Word being distributed and supernaturally used around the world is wonderful.

They generally speak about 10-15 minutes. I'm going to start a thread about a few of their stories.
Click to expand...

I would have handled it this way... This woman wants to give her testimony to those of the congregation who want to stay after services has ended feel free... To others of our congregation, that are not interested feel free to leave... I'm sure each person in our congregation has a personal testimony they can also share if they so desire but if not you are free to go after our final prayer... Its your decision not the church... Brother Glen

Btw... This is The Lord's Church and no member or visitor has any right to lord over it!

Having to make a quick decision

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