John 11:47–53

[37818]

Surely you can do better than that for an answer. Flesh out your comment.

I believe John 19:28 is after Jesus was a proxy for us. And in Matthew's and Mark's accounts Jesus was being our proxy when He was citing Psalms 22:1.

 

[JonC]

How do you get proxy out of Psalm 22?

The main theme of the Psalm is that God will deliver us even though we may be forsaken to suffer. The entire Psalm is about the Righteous Servant suffering evil without immediate deliverance, but relying on the righteousness of God expressed towards His servants in the past.

There is no proxy at all in Psalm 22. We can look to Jesus and know that although we are forsaken to suffer under the powers of this world, under the evil of sin and death, He will deliver us because He delivered Christ.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Uh....no.

Write out the following on a piece of paper:

Here was the concern:

"If we let Him go on like this, all men will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation."

Here was the conclusion:

"You know nothing at all, nor do you take into account that it is expedient for you that one man die for the people, and that the whole nation not perish.”

That simply is not substitution. The plan was not to kill Jesus instead of killing the nation. It was to kill Jesus in order to prevent Rome from destroying the nation due to the impact they feared His ministry would have.

That is simply not Substitution.

It simply, very simply, is

It is killing one man for the nation, so that the nation would not perish. But not as a substitute. It was because they feared Rome would take notice and destroy the nation.

If anything, it was a sacrifice (kill one man for the nation so that Rome would not destroy the nation).

This is getting so boring. It is killing one man so that the nation would not perish. He dies on behalf of the nation. He dies; the nation does not perish. Jesus takes the fall for the nation. Penal Substitution. End of story, dress it up how you will.

 

[JonC]

It simply, very simply, is

This is getting so boring. It is killing one man so that the nation would not perish. He dies on behalf of the nation. He dies; the nation does not perish. Jesus takes the fall for the nation. Penal Substitution. End of story, dress it up how you will.

No. You are adding to the passage.

He is not dying on behalf of the nation (per the passage). He is dying so that the nation will not be destroyed by Rome.

If you hide a criminal but give him up so that you are not arrested then that criminal is given up for you....but not on your behalf and not as your substitute

This was the concern:

"If we let Him go on like this, all men will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation.”

This was the conclusion:

"It is expedient for you that one man die for the people, and that the whole nation not perish.”

This was the action based on the conclusion:

"So from that day on they planned together to kill Him."


Not substitution. Not "on behalf of". Not proxy.

But "for".

No need to add to God's Word at all.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

He is not dying on behalf of the nation (per the passage). He is dying so that the nation will not be destroyed by Rome.

Close but no cigar.
He actually is dying on behalf of the nation (Gk. huper). He is dying so that the nation will not be destroyed by Rome.
He is dying in the place of the nation.

 

[JonC]

Close but no cigar.
He actually is dying on behalf of the nation (Gk. huper). He is dying so that the nation will not be destroyed by Rome.
He is dying in the place of the nation.

Not in that passage. He is dying for the nation (so that Rome will not destroy the nation).

He does due on our behalf. But not as a substitute, not proxy.

The verse is from the perspective of the Jews. They were concerned about the state of the Jewish nation. Rome was the evil oppressing government. The idea was that Jesus would attract followers seeking to create Israel as a kingdom once again. This had been attempted many times. If Jesus was allowed to continue to the point that most Jews followed Him seeking an earthly kingdom then Rome would destroy the nation (probably more important to them, their status).

You read substitution into the passage.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

You read substitution into the passage

No. You read substitution out of the passage.

 

[JonC]

No. You read substitution out of the passage.

I am just reading the words ("what is written").

It is easy to know that "for" doesn't necessitate substitution because John used it immediately prior to your "target text" to mean "in the interest of".

But you should know this simply by language.

If I speak on your behalf I am not speaking in your place but for you (in your interest).