God can change.

[tyndale1946]

To Van... God cannot change in an eternal sense, if he can then this scripture is worthless... Brother Glen

Malachi 3: 6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

 

[KenH]

The Bible does not teach Double Predestination!

Yes, it does. Read Romans chapter 9.

 

[tyndale1946]

Yes, it does. Read Romans chapter 9.

You are going to have to show me because I don't see it... I don't know how many times I've read and studied Romans, maybe you will enlighten me or vice versa... I do change my mind but not too often... Convince me by scripture, if not you keep your belief and I'll keep mine... Brother Glen

 

[KenH]

Convince me by scripture

I cannot convince you of something that only the Holy Spirit can do.

Romans 9:10-24 When Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; ( for the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; ) it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

 

[Silverhair]

Yes.



Then you would be mistaken.



True. It is.



No. You are saying that, as you are saying, falsely, that God wants to accomplish a purpose - save everyone single human being - but lacks the ability to accomplish His purpose. Your teaching is not the God of the holy Scriptures; your teaching is a god of your own man-based imagination, much like the gods of Greek mythology.



God not only wants all of His elect to be saved, He WILL save them.



God loves His elect and He will save them. There is no doubt about this.



I am doing no such thing.

Your answers clearly show that you do not trust what the Holy Spirit says.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Not just some men or your "elect".

If we go by your understanding of this text then God will save all men as that seems to be your understanding of God's desire. So are you a universalist?

But logically since not all are saved so we have to conclude that although God would like/desire all to be saved it is only those that freely trust in His son that will be saved.

Your own words show that you do not trust scripture as it is written. You have to import errant meaning or even change words to make in the attempt to have it conform to your theology.

You say God loves His elect, which is true, but one is only elect after they are in Christ not before as you seem to think. And they are only in Christ after they freely trust in Him. You know: hear the gospel, believe the gospel, God by His grace saves you.

 

[Silverhair]

All of God's elect respond to the declaration of the finished work of Christ on their behalf.

Psalms 110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, In the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: Thou hast the dew of thy youth.

If left to themselves, even God's elect cannot respond to the declaration of the finished work of Christ on their behalf.

Any gospel that does not condition salvation 100% on the finished work of Christ having met ALL of the conditions for His people is a false gospel.

Salvation is not some kind of joint venture between God and man - conditioned on God doing some percentage of it and conditioned on man doing some percentage of it.

If salvation depends the least tiny little bit on man doing something, then no man would be saved.

If man is involved in meeting conditions, then it would be polluted, just like the altar of stone would be in the Law of Moses.

Exodus 20:25 And if thou wilt make me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stone: for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast polluted it.

I find it odd that you do not trust what the Holy Spirit inspires to be written regarding salvation.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes,

Rom 10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
Rom 10:10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.


And we see that this is the desire of God the Father
Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

 

[KenH]

one is only elect after they are in Christ

Evidently, then, you believe that you can elect yourself. You think there is an election and you are only voter, eh? Your cry is, "God, I just elected myself for salvation; therefore, God since I decided this, You HAVE to save me now."

Your belief is so man-centered and so full of man's pride. It is a false gospel.

 

[KenH]

I find it odd that you do not trust what the Holy Spirit inspires to be written regarding salvation.

I certainly do believe the holy Scriptures.

And we see that this is the desire of God the Father

Evidently, you agree with Noel Smith:

' As further proof, we quote one prominent "Baptist" (BBF) preacher of some years ago as representative of this Thomist/Arminian view. He wrote, ". . . hell is a ghastly monument to the failure of the Triune God to save the multitudes who are there . . . sinners go to hell because God Almighty couldn't save them! He did all He could. He failed." [Noel Smith, "Universal Atonement," Defender Magazine, Springfield, MO., U.S.A., December, 1956]. '

Is God a Failure? (libcfl.com)

 

[percho]

Why did Jesus choose Judas knowing that he will betray Him? - BibleAsk

How many agree with the first paragraph and the last paragraph?

Romans 9:10-24When Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; ( for the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )

I say Jesus choose Judas for the purpose of prophecy? Was Judas necessary to the purpose of God?

Men, Israelites! hear these words, Jesus the Nazarene, a man approved of God among you by mighty works, and wonders, and signs, that God did through him in the midst of you, according as also ye yourselves have known; this one, by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, being given out, having taken by lawless hands, having crucified -- ye did slay;

 

[Silverhair]

Evidently, then, you believe that you can elect yourself. You think there is an election and you are only voter, eh? Your cry is, "God, I just elected myself for salvation; therefore, God since I decided this, You HAVE to save me now."

Your belief is so man-centered and so full of man's pride. It is a false gospel.

How did you arrive at that from my post. You are just unset that I do not agree with your philosophy. I quote you the bible and you abuse the text. Come on Ken I do expect better from you.

One is saved in response to their belief in the risen Christ. Since that is what the bible says I do think I am on quite solid ground here. You on the other hand have your feet firmly planted in the air.

I have to ask you Ken, whom do you think I should listen to You or the Holy Spirit?

 

[KenH]

you abuse the text.

I did no such thing.

One is saved in response to their belief in the risen Christ.

One is saved because God saves him. He saves him because Christ, as his Surety, met all of the demands of God's justice.

I do think I am on quite solid ground here.

No. You are on sinking sand.

You on the other hand have your feet firmly planted in the air.

I am planted firmly on the Rock and that Rock is Christ.

I have to ask you Ken, whom do you think I should listen to You or the Holy Spirit?

If God has given one eyes to see and ears to hear, then he will listen to the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

 

[Silverhair]

I certainly do believe the holy Scriptures.



Evidently, you agree with Noel Smith:

' As further proof, we quote one prominent "Baptist" (BBF) preacher of some years ago as representative of this Thomist/Arminian view. He wrote, ". . . hell is a ghastly monument to the failure of the Triune God to save the multitudes who are there . . . sinners go to hell because God Almighty couldn't save them! He did all He could. He failed." [Noel Smith, "Universal Atonement," Defender Magazine, Springfield, MO., U.S.A., December, 1956]. '

Is God a Failure? (libcfl.com)

As for you believing the scriptures, well that is yet to be proven as you do seem to deny the Holy Spirit inspired scriptures that I have posted.

Since the bible tells us that God has set the condition of salvation, faith in His risen Son, and that He actually desires all men to be saved which why He sent His son, so that the world could be saved through Him. So, NO, God is not a failure. His plan will be worked out despite the errant views that have been foisted upon the bible. Those that twist scripture and/or change the text to suit their theology will have to answer to God as to why they thought that was a good idea.

I do note that you keep referring to the views of man much more than you refer to what God has said. Why is that Ken?

 

[Silverhair]

I did no such thing.



One is saved because God saves him. He saves him because Christ, as his Surety, met all of the demands of God's justice.



No. You are on sinking sand.



I am planted firmly on the Rock and that Rock is Christ.



If God has given one eyes to see and ears to hear, then he will listen to the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

Do you agree with these bible verses or not Ken?

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes,

Rom 10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
Rom 10:10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.


And we see that this is the desire of God the Father
Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

 

[KenH]

As for you believing the scriptures, well that is yet to be proven

There is no need for me to prove anything to you. You are not my judge. I have already been judged in my Lord Jesus Christ and He has clothed me with His perfect righteousness.

you do seem to deny the Holy Spirit inspired scriptures that I have posted.

I have done no such thing.

Since the bible tells us that God has set the condition of salvation

All of which conditions Christ has fulfilled as my Surety.

He actually desires all men to be saved

All of His elect "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation." Revelation 5:9

So, NO, God is not a failure.

God is certainly not a failure, even though false gospels that condition salvation in some shape or form on man, in essence make God out to be a failure. But those false gospels are lying about God.

Those that twist scripture and/or change the text to suit their theology will have to answer to God as to why they thought that was a good idea.

All of the reprobates, who have no Surety, will have to stand before God to be judged for their sins, while God's elect have already been judged in Christ as their Surety and declared justified.

I do note that you keep referring to the views of man much more than you refer to what God has said. Why is that Ken?

I do not accept your premise. Maybe you think that way because the gospel you are teaching is based on man's efforts, and not 100% totally on Christ as the Surety of God's elect as the true gospel of Christ is.

 

[KenH]

Do you agree with these bible verses or not Ken?

I agree with everything written in the Bible, regardless of how much or how little I understand it. My faith is in Christ as my Surety, my righteousness. I have no faith in anything in me or done by me. I am nothing but a filthy, vile, wretched sinner, saved totally 100% by the grace of God in Christ Jesus.

 

[Silverhair]

I agree with everything written in the Bible, regardless of how much or how little I understand it. My faith is in Christ as my Surety, my righteousness. I have no faith in anything in me or done by me. I am nothing but a filthy, vile, wretched sinner, saved totally 100% by the grace of God in Christ Jesus.

You keep saying that you agree with scripture but then reject what it says. You can not do both.

Regarding Double Predestination

If God has already elected those who are going to heaven and hell, then why evangelize, seek to be saved, or even follow God's path and there is no use in praying for your friends or family.

If God predestined everything, then God created sin. Man cannot be faulted for his sins so why eternally condemn the non-elect? After all, it is not their fault.. they were predestined to sin and be damned!

Why does God say that those who do not seek Him have no excuse and why does He judge them for not trusting in the Son?

What about Persuasion

To prevail upon or win over, to persuade, bringing about a change of mind by the influence of reason or moral considerations. Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary

But why would this be necessary if God has predestined the future of everyone?

Scripture speaks of persuasion being used in evangelism so did the Holy Spirit get it wrong again? You seem to disagree with much of what the bible says. Why is that?

Act 18:4 And he was reasoning in the synagogue every Sabbath and trying to persuade Jews and Greeks.

Act 18:12 ..Paul and brought him before the judgment seat,
Act 18:13 saying, "This man persuades men to worship God contrary to the law."

Act 28:24 Some were being persuaded by the things spoken, but others would not believe.

Now I know the standard answer from Calvinist will be, because God told us to. But the question is why? He has already picked out the saved and the lost. Even the death of Christ was unnecessary. The absolutely elect must have been saved without him; and the non-elect cannot be saved by him.

As I said before your Calvinist double predestination view does not do justice to the character of God as revealed in scripture.

 

[Piper]

You are going to have to show me because I don't see it... I don't know how many times I've read and studied Romans, maybe you will enlighten me or vice versa... I do change my mind but not too often... Convince me by scripture, if not you keep your belief and I'll keep mine... Brother Glen

I know that you probably won't, but my recommendation is to read this: The Justification of God by John Piper $19.59 plus shipping

The Justification of God 2nd ed.

It is an exposition of Romans 9, his first book in 1979.

I struggled with Predestination for years and years, so in 2003, as a pastor I started preaching through Romans after 7 years. I knew Romans 9 would be a challenge, so I got it and it convinced me.

It changed my view of God in a powerful way.

 

[Van]

Are you trying to be misleading?

The title of the Thread is "God can Change." And yet your OP asserts that God does not change.

Are you trying to be misleading? God can condemn one person yet provide grace to another.

 

[Piper]

Are you trying to be misleading? God can condemn one person yet provide grace to another.

Yes he can. Romans 9:18-20

So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”

 

[KenH]

You keep saying that you agree with scripture but then reject what it says.

I do not reject the holy Scriptures.