Can God Do Anything At All and Remain Just?

[CJP69]

The short answer is, "NO!"

There are some here who believe that God could, if He wanted to, simply decide to forgo the punishment of Hell for the wicked. He could instead just let them wallow around in the misery and destruction that comes as a result of their wickedness.

One poster on the forum put it this way...

"God doesn't have to punish sin. He could just let humanity continually destroy ourselves in our own sinful behavior forever."​

To any person would say, or voice agreement with, such a statement, I ask...

What else could God choose not to do?

If he doesn't have to punish the wicked, why does He have to bring believers to heaven?

"Because He promised too!", you're thinking?
Well, He also promised to punish the wicked, right? If He doesn't have to keep that promise, why would He have to keep any other?

What if God decided tomorrow that it was okay to rape any woman you find three houses down from where you live on any third Thursday of the month?

Could God do that? Is your God allowed to do that? Would your doctrine survive God doing something like that? Would your faith in Him survive him doing something like that?

Mine certainly wouldn't! Would yours?

If you believe that God can choose to be unjust in regards to the punishment of the wicked, that it is somehow optional, then on what basis do you believe that God must protect the innocent from the sexual predator or do you actually believe that God has the authority to declare rape to be a righteous act?

IF God were to ever do something like that, it would prove that He was unjust, unrighteous and, therefore, not worthy of love, allegiance or even trust. It would prove that He was no better than Satan, indeed He'd be far worse than Satan - infinitely worse! Such an action would debase God's rightful authority over anyone or anything for God's authority is founded upon His righteousness. His unwavering, unquestionable, unequivocal and in all other ways PERFECT righteousness...

Psalm 45:6 Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
Psalm 89:14 Righteousness and justice are the foundation of Your throne; Mercy and truth go before Your face.​

 

[JonC]

Well, that's a hypothetical (actually a nonsense) question.

The standard of righteousness IS God. We know what is right and wrong, what is just and unjust, because of God and His nature.


You offer this -

"There are some here who believe that God could, if He wanted to, simply decide to forgo the punishment of Hell for the wicked. He could instead just let them wallow around in the misery and destruction that comes as a result of their wickedness."


I would say "no" to this - but again it is based on God's revealed nature (God would be unrighteous in accordance to His Word).

Israel often appealed to God's righteousness - His revealed nature - that God will judge the wicked because God is just.
Likewise, in Revelation we read if the martyrs asking "how long?", appealing to God's righteousness.


But then you kinda go off topic.

"God doesn't have to punish sin. He could just let humanity continually destroy ourselves in our own sinful behavior forever."


If God did this, then allowing humanity to destroy itself is akin to God punishing the wicked.

The difference is not what God could have done but what God does. What is the purpose?

And that is God's Kingdom (the gospel). That is a new creation.

If we are focused on sins, then yes....of course God does not have to punish sins (He is able to forgive sins).

But we are talking about judging the wicked. And there is more than this life. It is appointed man once to die and then the Judgment.

Mankind may destroy itself in this life, but afterwards is the Judgment.

And here God has to punish the wicked. The wicked will not inherit God's kingdom.

 

[JonC]

Again - the OP is flawed.

It starts with a claim:

There are some here who believe that God could, if He wanted to, simply decide to forgo the punishment of Hell for the wicked. He could instead just let them wallow around in the misery and destruction that comes as a result of their wickedness.

And then offers an entirely different counterargument:

One poster on the forum put it this way...

"God doesn't have to punish sin. He could just let humanity continually destroy ourselves in our own sinful behavior forever."​

Believing that sin, when fully grown, brings forth death does not negate God casting the wicked into the Lake of Fire at Judgment.


The OP is confusing two very different things.

The Judgment occurs AFTER death (it is appointed man once to die and then the Judgment).

 

[CJP69]

Again - the OP is flawed.

It starts with a claim:And then offers an entirely different counterargument:

Believing that sin, when fully grown, brings forth death does not negate God casting the wicked into the Lake of Fire at Judgment.

I NEVER suggested otherwise. Not in the opening post and nowhere else either.

Of course, you knew that when you wrote this!

The OP is confusing two very different things.

I am confusing nothing! I am asking a very specific question which you are afraid to answer because your ridiculous doctrine cannot survive the answer.

It is rather surprising, as it turns out, how often Augustinian doctrine of all flavors and stripes turns to dust and blows away in the face of God's quality of character.

The Judgment occurs AFTER death (it is appointed man once to die and then the Judgment).

There is a judgment that occurs after death but Paul taught explicitly that death itself was(is) a judgment, as I have already proven to you [snip]

 

[JonC]

I NEVER suggested otherwise. Not in the opening post and nowhere else either.

Of course, you knew that when you wrote this!


I am confusing nothing! I am asking a very specific question which you are afraid to answer because your ridiculous doctrine cannot survive the answer.

It is rather surprising, as it turns out, how often Augustinian doctrine of all flavors and stripes turns to dust and blows away in the face of God's quality of character.


There is a judgment that occurs after death but Paul taught explicitly that death itself was(is) a judgment, as I have already proven to you [snip]

Now you are being silly.

I answered your question....not once but twice ...on this thread.

And you are not being truthful either. You did not provide a passage stating that death is God's punishment rather than God's punishment being Hell.


What you did was provide a passage disproving your faith. This was in another thread so you started a new one hoping your previous mistake would be missed.


I said that sin, when fully grown, brings forth death. It is appointed man once to die and then the judgment. God will judge the wicked, the wicked will be cast into the outer darkness, the lake of fire.

The OP quotes another who believes the same.


You claimed that there are some here who do not believe God will punish the wicked.

Your evidence was a member who held that sin brings forth death.

Those are two different things.


You are presenting a strawman argument, running from the fact that you accidentally posted a verse that proves you are wrong (that sin, when fully grown, brings forth death is actually in the Bible).


You have a theory. You go to the Bible to find support. But you ignore any passage that does not provide support to your theory.



AGAIN - my answer is that God will punish the wicked. His wrath is stored up until that day. The saints under the throne are awaiting for this day. The wicked will be punished, they will be cast into the Lake of Fire, the outer darkness.

BUT - sin, when fully grown, brings forth death. The wages of sin is death.


I agree with you that the first part is true. I disagree with your denial of the second part. That is all in God's Word. We do not get to pick which part of Scripture is true and which part is not. It is all true because God does not lie.

 

[MrW]

CJP69, I understood you. Good post.

 

[Alan Gross]

There are some here who believe that God could, if He wanted to, simply decide to forgo the punishment of Hell for the wicked.

God has what theologians call, "Self-Imposed Limitations",
such as "it was impossible for God to lie."

"That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:" Hebrews 6:18.

"One poster on the forum put it this way..."

That poster is just toying with and denying everything God is and what He has revealed about Who He is and is leaning in the direction of exulting Satan, for some reason.

God is God, Who God says He is, and not what sin-cursed man, coming out from their deceived heart with the reasonings in their mind, which was affected by the Fall of Adam, 'thinks' He 'might be'.

These conjectures and flesh-filled, 'man-made divinings', are self-evident proofs positive of the reality of the Total Depravity of Mankind.

"God doesn't have to punish sin. He could just let humanity continually destroy ourselves in our own sinful behavior forever."

"Can God Do Anything At All and Remain Just?", per the O.P.

Nope.

Not as long as God remains on His Throne
and that will be forever and ever and ever....

3 "How great are His signs,

how mighty His wonders!

His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,

and His dominion endures from generation to generation.

Daniel 4:3.

What if God decided tomorrow that it was okay to rape any woman you find three houses down from where you live on any third Thursday of the month?

What if some human just has the wrong God?

"Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever." Hebrews 13:8.

"Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning." James 1:17.

Could God do that? Is your God allowed to do that? Would your doctrine survive God doing something like that? Would your faith in Him survive him doing something like that?

No. Wrong God.

Then, of course not, and of course not.

God has what theologians call, "Self-Imposed Limitations", which are characteristics of His Unchangeable Omniscient Attributes.

If you believe that God can choose to be unjust in regards to the punishment of the wicked, that it is somehow optional, then on what basis do you believe that God must protect the innocent from the sexual predator or do you actually believe that God has the authority to declare rape to be a righteous act?

"If you believe that God can choose to be unjust in regards to the punishment of the wicked, that it is somehow optional,..."

That is just the opposite of God's Being Just.

Plain old Satanic territory.

"God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day." Psalm 7:11.

From: Dust off your Bible and shake the dust off your soul.

"When you feast on the stories of Scripture with the wisdom that comes from faith in a risen Savior, the stories can shake the dust off your bones and bring life to your soul."

Deu 16:18 - "Judges and officers shalt thou make thee in all thy gates, which the LORD thy God giveth thee, throughout thy tribes: and they shall judge the people with just judgment."

Deu 32:4 - "He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he."

more at: Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

It would prove that He was no better than Satan, indeed He'd be far worse than Satan - infinitely worse! Such an action would debase God's rightful authority over anyone or anything for God's authority is founded upon His righteousness.

I think that this is the kind of sorcery with which that Wizard of Smart 'poster' is entangled and flirting. It is all Satan-influenced and is where we get the word, "blaspheme".

Don't bother trying to tell me, or God, that it is God Who is the One Who would be leading someone to debase His Character and Attributes, to equate Him with Satan and also defame God to be far worse than Satan, and to question His Immutable Justice and Holiness.

Job 33:12 - "Behold, in this thou art not just: I will answer thee,
that God is greater than man."

Psalm 45:6 Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.

Psalm 89:14 Righteousness and justice are the foundation of Your throne; Mercy and truth go before Your face.

WAY TO WORSHIP GOD, CJP69!!!

Good post, MrW! WAY TO 'STICK WITH THE STUFF!"

 

[MrW]

CJP69, I understood you. Good post.

By the way, God does nothing against His character and never will, thus we’ve no worries (also why I’ve no faith in Reformed Theology).

 

[JonC]

By the way, God does nothing against His character and never will, thus we’ve no worries (also why I’ve no faith in Reformed Theology).

Yep. Another way of stating the question is "Can God not be God?". The answer is no.

 

[Alan Gross]

By the way, God does nothing against His character and never will,
thus we’ve no worries

C&P activity, for Bible references:
CAN GOD DO ANYTHING?

"I will look further at the logical and the moral answers in a moment,
but let me first offer some biblical passages to consider.

"When my students quickly and firmly insist that God can do anything,
they of course have passages such as these in mind
which say God can do anything:"

-Genesis 18:14 Is anything too hard for the LORD?"

-Job 23:13-14 But he stands alone, and who can oppose him?
He does whatever he pleases.
He carries out his decree against me."

-Job 42:2 I know that you can do all things;
no purpose of yours can be thwarted."

-Psalm 115:3 Our God is in heaven; he does whatever pleases him."

-Psalm 135:6 The Lord does whatever pleases him."

-Proverbs 21:30 There is no wisdom, no insight,
no plan that can succeed against the Lord."

-Jeremiah 32:17 Ah, Sovereign Lord, you have made the heavens
and the earth by your great power and outstretched arm.
Nothing is too hard for you."

-Jeremiah 32:27 I am the Lord, the God of all mankind.
Is anything too hard for me?"

-Mark 14:36 “Abba, Father,” he said, “everything is possible for you”.

-Luke 1:37 "For nothing is impossible with God."

"If that was all we had to go on in the Bible, then yes,
we would have to say God can do anything.

"But the Bible also says there are certain things which God cannot do:"

-Numbers 23:19 "God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man,
that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act?
Does he promise and not fulfill?"

-1 Samuel 15:29 "He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind;
for he is not a man, that he should change his mind.”

-2 Timothy 2:13 "if we are faithless, he will remain faithful,
for he cannot disown himself."

-Hebrews 6:18 "God did this so that, by two unchangeable things
in which it is impossible for God to lie,
we who have fled to take hold of the hope offered to us
may be greatly encouraged."

-James 1:13 "When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.”
For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone."

-James 1:17 "Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows."

"So how do we reconcile these two sets of Scriptures?

"It is certainly true that God is All Powerful.

"There is no limit to His Power.

"His Power neither increases nor diminishes.

"But God can only do that which is doable, or logically possible,
and He can only do that which aligns with His Nature and Character."

 

[MrW]

There ARE some things God cannot/will not do.

God cannot:

1. Lie
2. Sin
3. Fail
4. Be late
5. Be deceived
6. Be thwarted
7. Be defeated
8. Change
9. Cease to exist

One more. He cannot die. Now if you said, “God died for us in the Person of Christ”, I would understand you mean Christ is God and Man and that He died as a Man, and I would agree with that, yet God APART FROM being a man, cannot die.

We know He does not act contrary to His character. That’s generic. Can you think of other specific things He cannot or will not do?

 

[CJP69]

There ARE some things God cannot/will not do.

Speaking in very broad general terms, I agree with you more than I disagree, but as stated, your list includes some things that might be called "overstated". Let's take them one at a time....

God cannot:

1. Lie

I Kings 22:19 Then Micaiah said, “Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing by, on His right hand and on His left. 20 And the Lord said, ‘Who will persuade Ahab to go up, that he may fall at Ramoth Gilead?’ So one spoke in this manner, and another spoke in that manner. 21 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, and said, ‘I will persuade him.’ 22 The Lord said to him, ‘In what way?’ So he said, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And the Lord said, ‘You shall persuade him, and also prevail. Go out and do so.’ 23 Therefore look! The Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours, and the Lord has declared disaster against you.”​

2. Sin

Obviously.

As per the previous point, it is not a sin to deceive and evil enemy.

Also, "cannot" is overstated here. Jesus was tempted in all ways as we are and was capable of sinning. Also, see my comment at the end of this post in response to what would have been #10 had you chosen to number it.

3. Fail

Isaiah 5:1 Now let me sing to my Well-beloved
A song of my Beloved regarding His vineyard:

My Well-beloved has a vineyard
On a very fruitful hill.
2 He dug it up and cleared out its stones,
And planted it with the choicest vine.
He built a tower in its midst,
And also made a winepress in it;
So He expected it to bring forth good grapes,
But it brought forth wild grapes.

3 “And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah,
Judge, please, between Me and My vineyard.
4 What more could have been done to My vineyard
That I have not done in it?
Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes,
Did it bring forth wild grapes?​

4. Be late

Daniel 10:10 Suddenly, a hand touched me, which made me tremble on my knees and on the palms of my hands. 11 And he said to me, “O Daniel, man greatly beloved, understand the words that I speak to you, and stand upright, for I have now been sent to you.” While he was speaking this word to me, I stood trembling.

12 Then he said to me, “Do not fear, Daniel, for from the first day that you set your heart to understand, and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard; and I have come because of your words. 13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days; and behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left alone there with the kings of Persia. ​

Not "late" in the sense of "too late", but delayed.

5. Be deceived

Definitely true!

6. Be thwarted

I started to just add the modifier "ultimately" here but then noticed the term "defeated" listed as number 7 and so it seems redundant to do so. But then that makes this redundant anyway since you've already listed "fail". As such, Isaiah 5, as quoted above, would address this point. God was thwarted in His efforts with Israel.

7. Be defeated

Indeed, God is quite invincible.

8. Change

Change in form...

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.​

Change of mind...

Exodus 32:7 And the Lord said to Moses, “Go, get down! For your people whom you brought out of the land of Egypt have corrupted themselves. 8 They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them. They have made themselves a molded calf, and worshiped it and sacrificed to it, and said, ‘This is your god, O Israel, that brought you out of the land of Egypt!’ ” 9 And the Lord said to Moses, “I have seen this people, and indeed it is a stiff-necked people! 10 Now therefore, let Me alone, that My wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them. And I will make of you a great nation.”


11 Then Moses pleaded with the Lord his God, and said: “Lord, why does Your wrath burn hot against Your people whom You have brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians speak, and say, ‘He brought them out to harm them, to kill them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth’? Turn from Your fierce wrath, and relent from this harm to Your people. 13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants, to whom You swore by Your own self, and said to them, ‘I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven; and all this land that I have spoken of I give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever.’ ” 14 So the Lord repented from the harm which He said He would do to His people.
​

God's character is immutable be He is not. To say otherwise is literally to give away the farm to the Calvinists because their distinctive doctrines all follow logically from the single premise that God cannot change in anyway whatsoever.

9. Cease to exist

Obviously so.

One more. He cannot die. Now if you said, “God died for us in the Person of Christ”, I would understand you mean Christ is God and Man and that He died as a Man, and I would agree with that, yet God APART FROM being a man, cannot die.

Well, God is a man, MrW! The Creator became a man and He did die and then He rose from the dead by His own power. That's only the core doctrine of the entire Christian faith!

We know He does not act contrary to His character. That’s generic. Can you think of other specific things He cannot or will not do?

Stating that God does not act contrary to His character is a good way to put it. Saying that He cannot, as in He is incapable of doing so (as in your point 2), makes God amoral rather than righteous and leads to the Augustinian doctrines that teach that God is arbitrary rather than just. All things pertaining to morality must be done willfully (i.e. they must be chosen), by definition. It is, therefore, most accurate to say that God is unwilling to act against the current description of His character and cannot be forced to do so.

This touches on a great many important issues, not the least of which is a rationally sound answer to Euthyphro's Dilemma, which only Christianity can offer, as well as dealing with the problem of evil and other similar issues.