Why Don't Modern Denominations Understand The Rapture

[taisto]

That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. I see no reason not to take Daniels 70 weeks and 1420 days as they are written. You tend to an allegorical understanding of the bible which allows you to make that bible says anything that you want it to say. I am more literal in my approach to scripture.

Literal in Theology The “literal sense is the meaning conveyed by the words of Scripture and discovered by exegesis, following the rules of sound interpretation.
There are various literary styles used in the Bible. These range from Narrative, to Law, Wisdom, Poetry, Apocalyptic literature etc.We need to be aware of these if we are to correctly understand what the Holy Spirit is wanting to convey to us.

As I said before, you have not presented any evidence that would make me think that the Amill view is the correct understanding of scripture.

The literal sense is not the language of the prophets. Was Joel talking about literal locust? Was Ezekiel talking about literal bones coming to life? Was Isaiah being literal when he described God as trodding the winepress in Isaiah 63?

If you're going to hold to strict literalism with the prophets then you will be creating bizarre things in your interpretation.

 

[timtofly]

Again, no one except you is saying anything about a cult. You are being deceitful and dishonest with what I have said. You are in the wrong and should acknowledge it. Will you be willing to suck up your pride and admit you have misspoken?

You are the one denying the literal use of numbers by John in the book of Revelation, and instead turn to gematria that is used by kabbalist to interpret Scripture. I am not accusing you. I know Christians who have joined the Masons. I never said you were a cult, nor in a cult.

 

[taisto]

You are the one denying the literal use of numbers by John in the book of Revelation, and instead turn to gematria that is used by kabbalist to interpret Scripture. I am not accusing you. I know Christians who have joined the Masons. I never said you were a cult, nor in a cult.

I am saying that John wasn't meaning the numbers to be exact. The prophets of old didn't use exact numbers either.
I am pointing out that you are inconsistent in your reading of apocalyptic language. You pick and choose what is literal and what is figurative, based on your dispensational/futurist presuppositions. You have to do this or your entire view crumbles and then you have to admit that your interpretation is on shaky ground.

The fact that you are accusing me of cult activities is sad. I pity you for your incapacity to grasp that the early church held to an Amillennial view. Was the vast amount of Christendom in a cult, while your new interpretation is the only way?
You may not see how silly and sad you are being. Perhaps some day you will actually study Revelation and see how the Amillennial view is so deeply steeped in the whole Bible and seeing how John is connected and intertwined with all the prophets of old. Until then, I forgive your ignorance.

 

[JD731]

Teaching the doctrine of amillennialism is a denial of the Abrahamic Covenant and every prophesy in the OT and the ministry of Jesus Christ as recorded in Matthew, Mark, and Luke. Jesus Christ, the last Adam and the second man, will regain the dominion over the earth that the first Adam lost.

Genesis 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Matt 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Psa 8
1 O Lord, our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens.
2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.
3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;
4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
7 All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field;
8 The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas.
9 O Lord our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth!

1 Peter 4:11
If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Psa 115:16 The heaven, even the heavens, are the Lord's: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

Lk1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Revelation 1:6
And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Now we know how long he will reign on this earth before the renovation by fire of the current heavens and earth.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

InBiblical terminology the harvest is in three stages.

1) The firstfruits
2) The main harvest
3) The gleanings.

Thus, as in all things God creates there is the trinitarian signature.

There are three epochs in time.

1) creation to the flood
2) From the flood to the day of the Lord
3) The one thousand year day of the Lord until the great white throne judgement and the new earth and new heaven.

If you cannot find a trinitarian signature in your Bible study in things pertaining to God, there is a good chance you are in error.

Believe the words!

 

[kyredneck]

You claimed John used Kabbalist methods.

You make this claim, show us where.

 

[timtofly]

I am saying that John wasn't meaning the numbers to be exact. The prophets of old didn't use exact numbers either.
I am pointing out that you are inconsistent in your reading of apocalyptic language. You pick and choose what is literal and what is figurative, based on your dispensational/futurist presuppositions. You have to do this or your entire view crumbles and then you have to admit that your interpretation is on shaky ground.

The fact that you are accusing me of cult activities is sad. I pity you for your incapacity to grasp that the early church held to an Amillennial view. Was the vast amount of Christendom in a cult, while your new interpretation is the only way?
You may not see how silly and sad you are being. Perhaps some day you will actually study Revelation and see how the Amillennial view is so deeply steeped in the whole Bible and seeing how John is connected and intertwined with all the prophets of old. Until then, I forgive your ignorance.

The early church did not claim the thousand years was the time period between the two advents. That would be post mill, anyways. Are you post mill, or just deny the future millennium. The thousand years was always a future event in early church writings. I assume after the first millennium, those theologians would not be considered early church writers.

I understand that you want to do away with any literal application of the book of Revelation. You have yet to prove that I pick and choose what is literal and what is not. Were there 7 churches or was that just symbolic of the last 2 millennia? Instead of accusing me as a dismissal tactic, show us why you pick and choose what is literal if anything in the book is even literal to you. Explain why God would give Satan unlimited freedom without a time limit? Because you have pointed out the 42 months is not literal, so Satan could be in charge for 3 thousand more years. Explain why you have a symbolic time in mind instead of what John actually stated in the book of Revelation.

BTW, I don't pick and choose what is literal or not. I attempt to place a literal meaning with all John's points whether they are written as literal or symbolic. I have no reason to say 42 months is anything other than 42 months. While you won't even define a time frame period, as you have not given us what that 42 months is supposed to symbolize.

 

[timtofly]

You make this claim, show us where.

John is employing gematria in the numbers, not literalism.

He used a very common technique of gematria.

 

[Silverhair]

The literal sense is not the language of the prophets. Was Joel talking about literal locust? Was Ezekiel talking about literal bones coming to life? Was Isaiah being literal when he described God as trodding the winepress in Isaiah 63?

If you're going to hold to strict literalism with the prophets then you will be creating bizarre things in your interpretation.

Did you actually read what I posted? Get past your theological mind block and read the post.
Literal in Theology The “literal sense is the meaning conveyed by the words of Scripture and discovered by exegesis, following the rules of sound interpretation.

Prophecy should be read as prophecy, is that to hard a concept for you to grasp? Was it necessary for me to list all the various literary styles used in the Bible for you to understand what Literal in Theology means?

I see no reason not to take Daniels 70 weeks and 1420 days as they are written. As I see no reason not to trust Christ when He said that He would return.

 

[taisto]

Did you actually read what I posted? Get past your theological mind block and read the post.
Literal in Theology The “literal sense is the meaning conveyed by the words of Scripture and discovered by exegesis, following the rules of sound interpretation.

Prophecy should be read as prophecy, is that to hard a concept for you to grasp? Was it necessary for me to list all the various literary styles used in the Bible for you to understand what Literal in Theology means?

I see no reason not to take Daniels 70 weeks and 1420 days as they are written. As I see no reason not to trust Christ when He said that He would return.

I hold the view of the prophets and original writers who literally wrote poetry and metaphorically. If you cannot see how they were writing, don't blame me.

 

[taisto]

The early church did not claim the thousand years was the time period between the two advents. That would be post mill, anyways. Are you post mill, or just deny the future millennium. The thousand years was always a future event in early church writings. I assume after the first millennium, those theologians would not be considered early church writers.

I understand that you want to do away with any literal application of the book of Revelation. You have yet to prove that I pick and choose what is literal and what is not. Were there 7 churches or was that just symbolic of the last 2 millennia? Instead of accusing me as a dismissal tactic, show us why you pick and choose what is literal if anything in the book is even literal to you. Explain why God would give Satan unlimited freedom without a time limit? Because you have pointed out the 42 months is not literal, so Satan could be in charge for 3 thousand more years. Explain why you have a symbolic time in mind instead of what John actually stated in the book of Revelation.

BTW, I don't pick and choose what is literal or not. I attempt to place a literal meaning with all John's points whether they are written as literal or symbolic. I have no reason to say 42 months is anything other than 42 months. While you won't even define a time frame period, as you have not given us what that 42 months is supposed to symbolize.

You certainly pick and choose what is literal or not.

 

[taisto]

Teaching the doctrine of amillennialism is a denial of the Abrahamic Covenant and every prophesy in the OT and the ministry of Jesus Christ as recorded in Matthew, Mark, and Luke.

Entirely False and bogus on your part.
Amillennialism embraces the covenants and blessings to all who are redeemed by faith in the Promised One.
It is clear that you have never read even one commentary on Revelation from an Amillennial perspective. You keep speaking from ignorance and it benefits no one.

 

[JD731]

Entirely False and bogus on your part.
Amillennialism embraces the covenants and blessings to all who are redeemed by faith in the Promised One.
It is clear that you have never read even one commentary on Revelation from an Amillennial perspective. You keep speaking from ignorance and it benefits no one.

The scriptures are not benefitting you at all. Why? Because you will not believe the words. You have a system that you are forcing your adopted ideas into. It is not okay to spiritualize the scriptures.

This thread is already too long so later I will begin a new thread called something like "What is the Revelation of Jesus Christ."

I will ask you this. Are you as adamant about the great white throne judgement being figurative? I ask because it is in the same context as the one thousand years.

 

[JonC]

Thread closed due to length.

Please feel free to start another.