Irrational theology.

[timtofly]

To be honest, your view sounds similar to Amil in that there is only one more return of Christ when he puts to death sin and unrighteousness.

Death is sin and unrighteousness. Interesting choice of words.

There is a reason some souls are beheaded, and they are not righteous until the instant they are beheaded. The sheep are not righteous until Jesus changes them into sheep. The term sheep and goat is not their state prior to judgment. The result of their judgment is the first resurrection. They are made sheep at that point. The goats are tossed into the LOF immediately upon judgment.

 

[taisto]

Death is sin and unrighteousness. Interesting choice of words.

There is a reason some souls are beheaded, and they are not righteous until the instant they are beheaded. The sheep are not righteous until Jesus changes them into sheep. The term sheep and goat is not their state prior to judgment. The result of their judgment is the first resurrection. They are made sheep at that point. The goats are tossed into the LOF immediately upon judgment.

Are you not a new creation as Paul told us?

(2 Corinthians 5:17-21)
This means that anyone who belongs to Christ has become a new person. The old life is gone; a new life has begun! And all of this is a gift from God, who brought us back to himself through Christ. And God has given us this task of reconciling people to him. For God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, no longer counting people’s sins against them. And he gave us this wonderful message of reconciliation. So we are Christ’s ambassadors; God is making his appeal through us. We speak for Christ when we plead, “Come back to God!” For God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sin, so that we could be made right with God through Christ.

 

[37818]

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

If you weren't quickened you wouldn't have it now would you?... Brother Glen

Brother, I am not sure you understand what is at issue here.

Revelation 20:5-6, ". . .But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. . . ."

 

[timtofly]

Are you not a new creation as Paul told us?

(2 Corinthians 5:17-21)
This means that anyone who belongs to Christ has become a new person. The old life is gone; a new life has begun! And all of this is a gift from God, who brought us back to himself through Christ. And God has given us this task of reconciling people to him. For God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, no longer counting people’s sins against them. And he gave us this wonderful message of reconciliation. So we are Christ’s ambassadors; God is making his appeal through us. We speak for Christ when we plead, “Come back to God!” For God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sin, so that we could be made right with God through Christ.

Symbolically, sure.

Would you care to live in symbolism your entire existence?

 

[37818]

@taisto,
Thank you for attempting to give explanation of the Amilllennal view. My view dates to 1969. Most pre-mill have no clue.

 

[tyndale1946]

Brother, I am not sure you understand what is at issue here.

Revelation 20:5-6, ". . .But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. . . ."

Would you call quickening a resurrection?... Not an eternal resurrection but a new life resurrection?... The second death hath no power on the Born Again child of God... Does scripture say we're priest of God and Christ now?... Present your bodies as a living sacrifice now... I don't have to wait a thousand years, do you?... You are serving Christ!

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

I see two separate events, what do you see?... Brother Glen

 

[37818]

Bits & Pieces Eschatology.

 

[Dave G]

So, is Satan deceiving the nations now?

Yes, he is, because false teachers are still spreading their false gospels and deceiving millions...
He works through his "children", just as God works through His.

Has the Lord come yet, and had His angel bind Satan and cast him into the bottomless pit for a 1,000 years while He rules with a "rod of iron" from Jerusalem on the throne of His father David?
No He hasn't, my friend.

When the Lord comes again, we will know it.
Equally, when Satan is bound, there will be no doubt in anyone's mind.

 

[37818]

Would you call quickening a resurrection?... Not an eternal resurrection but a new life resurrection?... The second death hath no power on the Born Again child of God... Does scripture say we're priest of God and Christ now?... Present your bodies as a living sacrifice now... I don't have to wait a thousand years, do you?... You are serving Christ!

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live

There is this now.

26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

I see two separate events, what do you see?... Brother Glen

And this future physical physical resurrections further explained in Revelation 20:5-6.

 

[Piper]

A serious poster in another thread wrote:


1 Peter 5:8-9, ". . . Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world. . . ."

That is part of what Amillenials think. Sam Storms, former president of the Evangelical Theological Society believes that. He says that as Rev 12:9-13 he is cast down to the earth figuratively and persecutes the church, and at the same time , as in Rev 20, he is bound, and can not deceive the nations, as in 20:3.

I say it is an absolute inconsistency in their system. Most Presbyterians are of this persuasion.

 

[Piper]

I am convinced that you believe this to be the case.
But it stands that Revelation 20:1-7 has not happened because the first resurrection has not happened yet per, ". . . But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. . . ."

Amillenialist Sam Storms says that rev 20:1-7 has happened and that the word resurrection there does not mean bodily.

 

[taisto]

Yes, he is, because false teachers are still spreading their false gospels and deceiving millions...
He works through his "children", just as God works through His.

Again, being bound does not mean demons are unable to do anything. Is the entire world and all nations presently deceived? No.
The deceiving of the nations tales place after the 1000 year binding. If Satan is deceiving the nations today, you would have to admit that the 1000 years is already past tense.
(Revelation 20:7-9)
When the thousand years come to an end, Satan will be let out of his prison. He will go out to deceive the nations—called Gog and Magog—in every corner of the earth. He will gather them together for battle—a mighty army, as numberless as sand along the seashore. And I saw them as they went up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded God’s people and the beloved city. But fire from heaven came down on the attacking armies and consumed them.

Has the Lord come yet, and had His angel bind Satan and cast him into the bottomless pit for a 1,000 years while He rules with a "rod of iron" from Jerusalem on the throne of His father David?
No He hasn't, my friend.

Where, in Revelation 20:1-10 is Jesus said to be ruling with an iron rod in physical Jerusalem?
You are projecting onto the text what futurists imagine, not what the text actually says.
(Revelation 20:1-10)
Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven with the key to the bottomless pit and a heavy chain in his hand. He seized the dragon—that old serpent, who is the devil, Satan—and bound him in chains for a thousand years. The angel threw him into the bottomless pit, which he then shut and locked so Satan could not deceive the nations anymore until the thousand years were finished. Afterward he must be released for a little while. Then I saw thrones, and the people sitting on them had been given the authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony about Jesus and for proclaiming the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his statue, nor accepted his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They all came to life again, and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years. This is the first resurrection. (The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years had ended.) Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. For them the second death holds no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him a thousand years.

When the thousand years come to an end, Satan will be let out of his prison. He will go out to deceive the nations—called Gog and Magog—in every corner of the earth. He will gather them together for battle—a mighty army, as numberless as sand along the seashore. And I saw them as they went up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded God’s people and the beloved city. But fire from heaven came down on the attacking armies and consumed them. Then the devil, who had deceived them, was thrown into the fiery lake of burning sulfur, joining the beast and the false prophet. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

When the Lord comes again, we will know it.

Indeed! As we know when thunder and lightning strike.

Equally, when Satan is bound, there will be no doubt in anyone's mind.

There is no doubt in my mind that Satan is bound. Like with Job, God has put a hedge around us and will not allow Satan to stir up every nation to destroy the Church. Just look around you and know that God has bound Satan from openly attacking you and the church.

It's obvious that the woman (the Church) has been placed in the wilderness so that the Dragon cannot get to her like he wishes.
(Revelation 12)
One day, perhaps soon, hell will be unleashed against God's elect. May God encourage us with the book of Revelation to endure and remain faithful. Jesus has won!!!

 

[37818]

If Satan is deceiving the nations today, you would have to admit that the 1000 years is already past tense.

No. Pre-milleniumalists do as you understand, believe that 1000 years to be yet future.

Now if the "1000 years" is actually Symbolic. What evidence disallows a literal view?

 

[taisto]

No. Pre-milleniumalists do as you understand, believe that 1000 years to be yet future.

Now if the "1000 years" is actually Symbolic. What evidence disallows a literal view?

I do not understand your last two sentences.
Are you saying it's a literally symbolic view?
Sorry your comment doesn't make sense.

 

[MrW]

A serious poster in another thread wrote:


1 Peter 5:8-9, ". . . Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world. . . ."

Right. Calvinists appear to make it up as they go. The devil is not bound.

 

[MrW]

I do not understand your last two sentences.
Are you saying it's a literally symbolic view?
Sorry your comment doesn't make sense.

It’s plain, easily understood. The 1000 year is exactly, literally, Christ physically ruling this earth with a rod of iron. Not 2523 years—1000 years.

 

[taisto]

It’s plain, easily understood. The 1000 year is exactly, literally, Christ physically ruling this earth with a rod of iron. Not 2523 years—1000 years.

The text doesn't say that however.
Nowhere does it say that Jesus is reigning with an iron rod for 1000 years. I will quote the KJV for you.

(Revelation 20:1-10)
And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Notice that it doesn't say that "Christ is physically ruling this earth with an iron rod (for 1000 years).

It is not there. Your imagination may say it's there, but not the text. Your claim, by the way, which is not found in the text, is one reason why I began to question dispensational futurism. The concept of a 1000 year rule of Christ is not actually stated in the text. Since it isn't there, how did the teaching show up?

The fact is, such a teaching is irrational when there is no text to support it.
Meanwhile, every number that John uses is symbolic in Revelation and the rational mind will then ask "what image is John conveying to us in the numbers as they connect us to the Old Testament?"

Please, show your claim from the text or admit there is nothing for you to claim.

 

[Silverhair]

The text doesn't say that however.
Nowhere does it say that Jesus is reigning with an iron rod for 1000 years. I will quote the KJV for you.

(Revelation 20:1-10)
And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Notice that it doesn't say that "Christ is physically ruling this earth with an iron rod (for 1000 years).

It is not there. Your imagination may say it's there, but not the text. Your claim, by the way, which is not found in the text, is one reason why I began to question dispensational futurism. The concept of a 1000 year rule of Christ is not actually stated in the text. Since it isn't there, how did the teaching show up?

The fact is, such a teaching is irrational when there is no text to support it.
Meanwhile, every number that John uses is symbolic in Revelation and the rational mind will then ask "what image is John conveying to us in the numbers as they connect us to the Old Testament?"

Please, show your claim from the text or admit there is nothing for you to claim.

@taisto you are very confusing, on one hand you reject something because the exact phrase is not found in the text then you reject something that is found in the text.

Rev 20:2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
Rev 20:3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

As for the concept of the 1000 yr reign
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Is that clear enough for you? And we are told in Rev 12:5 that Christ will rule all nations with a rod of iron.
Rev_12:5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron.

So we have Christ ruling for 1000 yrs and also we see that it will be with a rod of iron.

 

[taisto]

@taisto you are very confusing, on one hand you reject something because the exact phrase is not found in the text then you reject something that is found in the text.

Rev 20:2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
Rev 20:3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

As for the concept of the 1000 yr reign
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Is that clear enough for you? And we are told in Rev 12:5 that Christ will rule all nations with a rod of iron.
Rev_12:5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron.

So we have Christ ruling for 1000 yrs and also we see that it will be with a rod of iron.

It's very clear. The saints are presently reigning with Christ. The devil is bound from deceiving all the nations. The first resurrection is our being raised from death to life in our salvation. It's all right there before our eyes.

 

[taisto]

As an addendum, I cannot recall which one of you posted the 2 hour round table discussion moderated by John Piper, but I want to say thank you for posting it. It is a fantastic discussion of the text. I would label the 3 positions as Historicist (Post Millennial), Futurist (Premillennial), and Present Millennial (Amillennial). All the brothers are articulate and provide scripture for their position. I recommend people listen (I found it best at 1.75X speed, but that's just me) and find joy. Here is the link once again.